Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
BRITISH COUNCIL
& FOREIGN & COMMONWEALTH
OFFICE
23 JUNE 2008
Q20 Mr Touhig: The Report does say
that your approach is not systematic and it is not all that well
documented?
Mr Davidson: When we examine an
operation we do so on the basis of a business plan. That business
plan requires—
Q21 Mr Touhig: It also says that
you do not really do market testing?
Mr Davidson: Again, I think I
would dispute that we do not.
Q22 Mr Touhig: You read the Report.
Mr Davidson: I would argue that
we do in a number of places do market testing. We undertake a
range of market approaches. What we do not do, and where we want
to develop our work, is identify different models and a different
way of doing business. We tend to work on the basis of a fixed
model. The criticism of the Report, which is how I read this,
I think is accurate in that case.
Q23 Mr Touhig: How many new centres
are being planned at the moment?
Mr Davidson: I do not have a figure
off the top of my head.
Q24 Mr Touhig: You are planning some?
Mr Davidson: Yes.
Q25 Mr Touhig: Do you know where
they might be located?
Mr Davidson: We have plans for
a substantial expansion in China. We are also looking at plans
for India. We have a programme which, at the moment, is examining
the full range of our operations globally to identify new opportunities.
At the moment we are right in the middle of a process of examining
these opportunities.[3]
Q26 Mr Touhig: When you look at these
opportunities do you look at what contribution these developments
can make to our relationships within countries where you want
to set up?
Mr Davidson: Yes, we do. Our approach
is that we should seek them to cover their costs; where it is
appropriate we seek for them to provide a surplus which enables
us to develop the programme more widely; but everywhere we look
to them as a contribution to the UK's international relationship.
We will not open a centre where it does not provide a contribution
to the public diplomacy objectives.
Q27 Mr Touhig: Coming back again
to costs and I am looking at your website, it says that one of
your stated aims in the purpose and direction section is your
commitment to internationalism and to equal opportunities; but
how does this commitment sit well with some of the high charges
that you make?
Mr Davidson: It sits with our
recognising that out of our centres we develop this wider range
of other activity. Perhaps Mr Lynes could give you some examples
of some of that work.
Mr Lynes: As the Report states
the British Council has got an excellent reputation in terms of
English work that it does around the world, and it is regarded
as a world authority. In all the cities where we actually deliver
face-to-face teaching it raises the standard of direct teaching
in that city and in that country. It is for that reason governments
come to us and look to us to access ELT through the UK. For example
in the Middle East, where I am currently working, we are working
with the Yemeni government on curriculum reform, introducing UK
textbooks into the market there; and we are working in Saudi Arabia
supporting English language teaching in universities there. So
the teaching centres are only a small part of what we are doing.
Q28 Mr Touhig: I understand, but
what I am trying to explore is that there are many countries which
are not wealthy which would benefit enormously from the British
Council's English teaching and could prove to us to be very useful
partners in the long-term?
Mr Lynes: Absolutely right. We
do operate in places in Africa.
Q29 Mr Touhig: Would lower charges
then actually benefit us? Does not the Foreign Office have a view
on this? Do you prod them from time to time and say, "We
have a certain interest developing in this country. We'd like
to see you expand your work and by the way, boys, knock 20% off
your charges"?
Mr Luck: We do work extremely
closely together, as indeed you have implied. We work very closely
on the strategic aims and objectives of the British Council; but
their day-to-day operations are very much matters for the British
Council.
Q30 Mr Touhig: You provide most of
their money?
Mr Luck: We do indeed.
Q31 Mr Touhig: So you have an interest?
Mr Luck: We do indeed on the public
diplomacy side; but again on the English language English teaching
side that is a part of the operation which is very much part of
the British Council's day-to-day operations.
Q32 Mr Touhig: Profits and surpluses,
Mr Davidson, might drop a little but in the long-term Britain's
interest might be better served. Do you not have a degree of flexibility
in your approach to this?
Mr Davidson: We do have flexibility
in our approach. As I said, because of the competition issues
we make absolutely certain there is no subsidy from the grant
into the teaching operation; and that is a fixed position for
us. We undoubtedly subsidise, from some of our wealthier operations,
some of the poorer ones. If you just look at the range of countries
where we are operating—54 rather than the 13 or nine that
our major competitors are working in—I think it indicates
the way in which we do make substantial shifts from wealthier
operations to the poorer ones.
Q33 Mr Touhig: Finally, Mr Luck,
value for money are they?
Mr Luck: I believe so, yes. We
do work extremely closely and they are a valued and valuable partner
in our public diplomacy effort. As Mr Davidson has indicated at
the beginning of the session, they have enormous reach, far greater
than the Foreign Office could do on its own; and I think the Report
points to our heads of mission saying that they feel they are
a valuable contribution to the Foreign Office.
Q34 Mr Bacon: In paragraph 1.6 the
Report describes your shift from Europe towards the Islamic World.
I read in my Daily Telegraph you are sponsoring a hip hop
band in Libya. I am not competent to judge whether that is value
for money or not; although the quote from your colleague, the
Ambassador to Egypt, saying that the debate inside Islam would
be helped by having professional Islamic scholars able to communicate
in English, I would have thought self-evidently true. Apparently
you are funding an English school in al-Azhar?
Mr Davidson: That is correct.
Q35 Mr Bacon: I am just wondering,
might that shift lead you to the closure of offices you already
have, or is it simply a case of scaling it down?
Mr Davidson: The shift we have
made out of Europe has indeed led to the closure of offices?
Q36 Mr Bacon: Whereabouts?
Mr Davidson: Over the last eight
years we have reduced, for example, in Germany from five[4]
regional offices to one; we are now present only in Berlin. We
are looking at a range of other operations as well to see whether
or not we should be present in the scale that we are. We will
also be moving in Europe away from a public presence except where
the public pays for that. For example, where we are able to teach
and the public is able to cover the costs of that presence we
will have a public presence; where it is not then we will be moving
into private offices.
Q37 Mr Bacon: Are you referring to the
British Council office in Hardenberger Strasse in Berlin? That
is still open, is it?
Mr Davidson: It has now moved.
It has now moved to a back office only; so we no longer have the
library or the teaching centre.
Q38 Mr Bacon: Not having the library
is probably a benefit, and I will come on to that and why. I used
to live in Berlin and I used to use the British Council office
and library, at least the office, for the newspapers at any rate,
regularly. Surely those ought to be capable of being self-financing
because of the English language teaching, should they not?
Mr Davidson: We have found it
difficult in some operations to do so.
Q39 Mr Bacon: In Germany I mean,
of all places, there is an enormous demand for English language
tuition there.
Mr Davidson: There is. The question
for us is the amount of time, effort and management we have to
put into it. Is that the best way for us to deliver the cultural
relations agenda we want, or do we do it in a different way?
3 Ev 17 Back
4
Note by witness: The British Council had five offices in Germany
in 2000: Cologne, Berlin, Hamburg, Munich and Leipzig Back
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