Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
BRITISH COUNCIL
& FOREIGN & COMMONWEALTH
OFFICE
23 JUNE 2008
Q100 Mr Davidson: I think that is welcome
but the heading here in this report, which you have agreed, is
identifying the groups to focus your resources on, therefore places
like West Bengal would not be part of the main focus since the
two groups here are clearly the focus. You can understand my anxiety
about this question of low price sensitivity given the image that
you have of dealing mainly with foreign elites. What evidence
can you point to in terms of paragraph 2.2, for example, about
who you are dealing with that would reassure me that you are not
just simply dealing with the existing power structure?
Mr Davidson: The organisation,
the way in which we define the people we are dealing with, yes,
we are seeking to deal with those who are going to have influence
into the future, but it is very important for us to be able to
find those people across a broad range of societies in the countries
where we are working. It is not about either a self-defined elite
or only the children of existing elites with whom we work. Programmes
like education promotion, our education management and our school
links are all designed to get out into a much wider section of
society than perhaps purely our English teaching side.
Q101 Mr Davidson: In that case, why
does it say in chart 5 " ... identified six T3 groups to
focus their resources on" and the sorts of people you are
mentioning do not seem to come up there? In terms of the T1, T2
groups, how many of those are involved with trade unions, for
example?
Mr Davidson: I do not have a figure,
but I can certainly endeavour to try and find one. In a number
of our countries we are working with a wide range of people, including
people within the trade union movement and other aspects of civil
society.
Q102 Mr Davidson: I think it would
be helpful if you did give us something in writing indicating
the extent to which you have got an involvement with trade unions
in the areas in which you are working. Have you got any relationships
with the trade unions here in the UK?
Mr Davidson: Obviously we have
within our own employment.
Q103 Mr Davidson: That is not what
I meant.
Mr Davidson: In a number of cases
we have had representatives from trade unions going on some of
our overseas programmes, yes.
Q104 Mr Davidson: You have had individual
trade unionists?
Mr Davidson: Yes.
Q105 Mr Davidson: But there is no
systematic approach to the trade union movement here at all which
might help you build links with trade unions abroad?
Mr Davidson: No, I do not think
I could claim that we have a systematic relationship with the
trade unions abroad.
Q106 Mr Davidson: You have sought
sponsorship from a variety of business groups, have you ever sought
any sponsorship from trade unions at all?
Mr Davidson: Not that I am aware
of, no.[11]
Q107 Mr Davidson: Can I ask a question
in terms of Connecting Classrooms on page 12. I have got schools
in my area which are involved with yourselves and they very much
welcome what you have been doing, but the breadth of the schools
altogether, how representative are the schools you are dealing
with in the UK of schools in general?
Mr Davidson: Off the top of my
head I do not have a figure, but my understanding is the vast
majority of them are state schools. Our intention is that we should
make an offer to every school in the country over the next five
years.
Q108 Mr Davidson: Whilst saying states
schools are better than the alternative of there not being state
schools, perhaps that is not sufficient. Do you have any information
about the level of examination passes? There are social class
links with examination passes and I want to be reassured that
you are approaching schools which are, again, representative of
the community as a whole and that the schools in my area are not
just simply an exception.
Mr Davidson: I believe we are.
We are undertaking a research programme with Ofsted at the moment
to look at the range of schools with whom we are working and to
make sure they are truly representative. Anecdotally, with our
international schools awards, I myself presented school awards
to schools in Moss Side and schools in other deprived areas, including
inner London, and the impact of an international agenda in those
schools has been quite remarkable.
Q109 Mr Davidson: I think it is undoubtedly
right that there will be individual examples, but what I want
to be clear about is whether or not that is the exception or that
they are getting a fair opportunity. Your business in terms of
English teaching, where are your main competitors from? I want
to follow that on to the extent to which you have been able to
establish a link between the amount of money and effort you are
putting in to promote English with the numbers of those young
people going on to higher and further education in the UK as compared
with what other countries are doing. Firstly, who are our main
competitors in these areas?
Mr Davidson: It obviously varies
very much from country to country. There is a range of competitors
from the UK but the two largest are Bell International and International
House, and there are a number of American teaching schools, but
in most countries the most significant competition is very local
providers of English language teaching of very variable quality;
some are excellent and some are really not very good at all.
Q110 Mr Davidson: In terms of transforming
the links from learning English into people going off to learn
in the UK at graduate and post-graduate level, who are our main
competitors there?
Mr Davidson: In terms of the countries
who are receiving students, the most significant competitors are
the United States and Australia but, growing very rapidly, France
and Germany. Both French and German universities now teach in
English and they have been quite successful in attracting students
from overseas to those courses.
Q111 Mr Davidson: Why are they being
more successful? Are they giving cheap offers?
Mr Davidson: I am not sure I would
say they have been more successful, the growth of student flows
into the UK has been very considerable but the competition has
grown. Both Germany and France have made significant efforts,
they have created new organisations to specifically market their
education overseas, they have started courses in English in direct
competition with ours, so while the overall size of the market
globally is growing the competition is growing extremely quickly
as well. So the truth of the matter is that our market share of
the total overseas student market probably has stagnated if not
dropped slightly given the range of new competitors coming into
that sphere.
Q112 Mr Davidson: What should we
be doing to ensure that our share of the market either maintains
as a minimum or rises? Have these points already been put to the
Foreign Office?
Mr Davidson: There have been some
extensive discussions on how we can develop the market, in particular
through the Prime Minister's Initiative, the first of which ran
from 1999 to 2005, and the second programme is running at the
moment. The difference in the two programmes is that the first
programme was very much about attracting students into the UK,
the second programme is about developing a wider range of links
including attracting students to the UK but also transnational
education providing British courses in universities overseas,
developing stronger links between universities in this country
and overseas, and indeed looking at persuading British students
to also study overseas in greater numbers than they are at the
moment.
Q113 Mr Dunne: Mr Davidson, on page
7 there is a box which talks about the objects of the British
Council. I see the Council is registered as a charity. Do the
objects in Table 2 equate to the charitable objects or are they
a different set of objects?
Mr Davidson: The objects in the
table are the same as our charitable objects.
Q114 Mr Dunne: Is charitable status
important to the British Council and, if so, could you explain
how and why?
Mr Davidson: I think charitable
status is important to us and that is not simply financially.
I think it provides us with a presence overseas and a sense of
an organisation which is delivering public benefit rather than
private benefit, which is important to many of those individuals
who work with us overseas and is in some circumstances important
to governments as well.
Q115 Mr Dunne: Is it important financially?
Mr Davidson: I do not think it
is critical financially. Clearly there are advantages in not paying
corporation tax but most of our activities globally, for example
education, in most jurisdictions would not be taxable. For me
it is not purely financial, it is also that sense of an organisation
delivering public benefit which is most important.
Q116 Mr Dunne: Is charitable status
secure under the new Charities Act arrangements?
Mr Davidson: Obviously we have
looked very closely at the Charities Act. We have had conversations
with the Charity Commissioners, we have also been looking with
our charity lawyers to see what implications the Act has on us.
We believe we are certainly able to meet the public benefit test
included in the Act.
Q117 Mr Dunne: Is it the only organisation
largely funded by the Government which has charitable status which
you are aware of? Are there other parallels?
Mr Davidson: I think the other
organisation which is of comparable size to us is the Arts Council
for England, which has charitable status.
Q118 Mr Dunne: But the Arts Council
does not have any direction from central Government, as we heard
here in this Committee earlier this month, as to its priorities,
whereas you do.
Mr Davidson: I do not think we
do have direct direction. The operational independence of the
British Council is a very important principle. It was a principle
which was reinforced by Lord Carter in his report two years ago.
Mr Luck has referred to that operational independence. So the
decisions that the British Council take about where we work, how
we work and what we seek to achieve are taken by the British Council's
board and nobody else.
Q119 Mr Dunne: What role does the
Foreign Office play in setting priorities and in governance?
Mr Davidson: In terms of governance,
the Foreign Secretary approves the appointment of the chair, the
deputy chair and my appointment. While the Foreign Secretary does
have the right to appoint a member of the British Council's board
of trustees, he does not exercise that right and there is no trustee
from the Foreign Office. In terms of the relationship between
the British Council and the Foreign Office, as I say, the operational
independence is for us a very important principle but clearly
we recognise that we draw significant sums of public money to
deliver a broad public benefit for the UK and, in deciding where
we are going to work and the range of work we are going to engage
in, we will take note of where the UK's broader international
benefit lies. But that seems to me to be entirely an appropriate
recognition of the environment in which we are working.
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