Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 288)
TUESDAY 10 JULY 2007
MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
PHILIP CULLUM
AND MS
ALISON HOPKINS
Q280 Mr Walker: Just following
on from my colleague's question, are three-year contracts the
norm? Do they form the bulk of your business three-year contracts?
Mr Narey: The bulk, but we have
a lot of contracts for 12 months as well. I would say that three
years is not long enough—it is better than 12 months but
it should be the minimum.
Q281 Mr Walker: Again you
touched on it, do you find yourself saying, "Sorry, we are
not bidding for that contract because the cost of bidding and
the cost of putting the resources in place is outweighed by the
risk that it will be terminated in 12 months"?
Mr Narey: That would certainly
discourage us from applying for work, yes.
Q282 Mr Walker: So there are
contracts where you say, "We are sorry, we are simply not
interested in bidding for a 12 month contract"?
Mr Narey: That is correct.
Q283 Mr Walker: Have you ever
had a local authority come back to you and say, "Yes, we
have re-looked at that actually and we can understand your concerns,
how about if we stretch this out and make it a three year contract"?
Mr Narey: I am not absolutely
sure, but I believe so, and I believe that has happened in the
southeast quite recently. I could check on that point.
Mr Walker: No, I am just saying that
the 12-month contracts do seem ridiculously short.
Q284 Chairman: What if somebody
said they wanted you to be involved in the design of contracts
rather than the provision of the service because that is where
they think that the third sector has some distinctive tools?
Mr Narey: You mean and then not
be able to bid for the contract? I think there is a job to be
had and certainly I think getting the commissioning right is very
valuable, and although we are mostly interested in service delivery
because we want to work with children, I would not be averse to
an approachable local authority which said, "You could not
bid for this work, it would have to go to another organisation
but we will pay you to help us design contracts and commissioning
arrangements, which would provide good public services,"
we would certainly think about that.
Q285 Chairman: Is there any
evidence of that happening at all?
Mr Narey: No, there is some evidence
of commissioners coming out to talk to us and say what sort of
things work and what sort of things should we include in the tender
documents, but I have to say that that is very patchy. For very
many occasions tenders arrive in our offices with two weeks to
fill them in, with a huge amount of work to do and with little
or no scope to say we think it can be done in a different way.
Q286 Chairman: To bring us
to an end, let us go back to where we started. I am interested
in what you have been saying, all of you, and Martin particularly
because you have been very honest with us about this. You have
said essentially, do not believe all those people who come in
here and tell us about the distinctive qualities of the third
sector and value added and all that, none of that stacks up, and
indeed is supported in a sense by the NCC research. What you are
offering, I think, is simply the third sector as another provider
and it is useful to have another provider, and as long as all
providers are well run and well managed that is the game. Is that
the argument?
Mr Narey: It is not quite as stark
as that. I think the voluntary sector can provide exceptional
services. I think it is much easier to manage an effective voluntary
service organisation than it was in the public sector. I think
the stability afforded by working for a Board of Trustees who
will take difficult decisions, will look five years ahead—I
no longer have ministers who change overnight—
Q287 Chairman: We know your
views on ministers!
Mr Narey: So I think we can run
a better organisation, but I think it is quite wrong to suggest
that naturally, by virtue of being part of the third sector, we
are better and we should have to prove we are better.
Q288 Chairman: Is the government
right to want to develop third sector provision?
Mr Narey: Yes, they are, but my
advice to the government would be do not just look at the third
sector but to look at the private sector as well because competition
will make the difference. What will happen in competition, whether
it involves just us or the private sector as well, is that a lot
of work will stay in the public sector but public sector direct
provision will improve dramatically.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
for a very interesting session.
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