Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
COMMISSIONER JOHN
YATES QPM, MS
CARMEN DOWD
AND MR
ASKER HUSAIN
13 JULY 2006
Q80 Chairman: But are there offences
under these two pieces of legislation we are talking about that
will require—
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
No.
Ms Dowd: The two that have been
quoted do not need AG's consent.
Q81 Grant Shapps: I thought I was
clear and now I am possibly confused. Your 35-40% bar, or level,
actually is not out of 100 but out of 50, which is an imaginary
50% which you would need to be at in order to produce evidential
proof. Is that right?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
It is going up on the bar to 100%. 50% I should not talk about
because it is not a realistic possibility of conviction, so I
correct myself on that, as I think I did correct myself in my
opening statement. It is where I believe in my professional judgment
the weight of the evidence is.
Q82 Grant Shapps: Yes. What we are
saying is you have to be over halfway before you would think you
would be putting this case to the CPS?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes.
Q83 Chairman: I was going to ask
you this, because in terms of your authorisation for us to say
things, I was going to particularly ask you about this aspect,
whether you are happy for me or any of us to say anything.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
I would say that bit should be private.
Q84 Chairman: You would not like
...
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
No.
Q85 Chairman: That is helpful. Are
there any more points? If not, can I just ask you, just so I am
clear again, my understanding is that your power of search can
be exercised before arrest.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
It can be exercised in a number of ways under the Police and Criminal
Evidence Act: at the time of arrest or post arrest having been
taken to a police station. Alternatively, you can get warrants,
but we have a power of arrest, therefore that is the way you use
it.
Q86 Chairman: You see the point:
this is the argument that you can do all these things anyway and
you can search without arresting.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
If I went to a magistrate and sought a search warrant prior to
that, it would be to arrest as well, more than likely. It does
not have to be, but there is a way of going through these processes.
Q87 Chairman: So you just behaved
in the normal way.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
We just behaved in an absolutely standard way, but we have considered
the options around the way the arrest was carried out and, be
assured, acutely aware of the sensitivities, and it was done in
a way to minimise all of that, which is why I was so surprised
to hear Lord Levy's legal representative talk in the way he did
last night.
Q88 Chairman: Because he knew he
was going to be arrested before he went to the police station.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Absolutely knew.
Q89 Grant Shapps: And his comment
was "I was shocked", "We were shocked when he was
arrested." I think that was his quote on ...
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
I think I have made it clear.
Q90 Mr Prentice: When you told us
earlier the decision to arrest was yours, you must have discussed
this matter with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and the
top team at Scotland Yard, given the sensitivity of this, given
its ramifications.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Firstly, I did not discuss it with the Commissioner.
Mr Prentice: You did not. OK.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Secondly, I consider myself reasonably experienced, reasonably
senior, and I am quite capable of making these sorts of judgements
on my own, with support, with legal advice, but ...
Mr Prentice: I was not suggesting that
you were not capable of doing this.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
That is what I am paid for.
Mr Prentice: I just do not know how these
decisions are taken in Scotland Yard. But it was you and you alone.
OK.
Q91 Chairman: Arresting the Prime
Minister's big buddy is a big call, is it not?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
We go where the evidence takes us.
Mr Prentice: Anyone for tennis?
Q92 Kelvin Hopkins: Following on
from what you have just said, Chair, it is a question one has
to ask. We live in the political world, where we are aware that
pressures are exerted, and I am absolutely confident that you
are doing a professional and independent job, but are you aware
of any political pressures, subtle or surreptitious, on you in
this investigation?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Clearly there are, because you read it every day in the papers,
but personally, on me, no. I think the general view I take and
the general feedback I get is people want us to do a thorough,
professional job and to conclude this matter as quickly as we
possibly can.
Q93 Chairman: On the loans business,
are you looking at loans documents, terms of?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes.
Q94 Chairman: And you are getting
good access to those, are you?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes.
Chairman: Good.
Q95 Jenny Willott: Can I ask one
other question? Are you expecting to make any more arrests in
the next couple of weeks?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
I cannot comment on that.
Jenny Willott: It was worth asking.
Q96 Chairman: Can I just go back
to where I started but do it this time with the CPS, if I may.
You remember at the outset I was asking about these two pieces
of legislation, and although all kinds of disreputable behaviours
may be discovered of the kind that politicians engage in, that
is different from breaking laws. As a lay person looking at these
two pieces of legislation, it is difficult for me to see how you
would reach the kind of evidence that you would need to have to
be able to do that. I would quite like to hear from the CPS side
whether, looking at the law and being faced with that question—not
the question of whether policemen can discover all kinds of interesting
material but whether actually that next bit can happen because
of what the law says—and given what we know to be the loopholes
in this law that we have now had to correct and we are operating
with the law as it was, on the face of it, it just seems to be
not do-able.
Ms Dowd: I do not think we could
ever comment upon that until we know what evidence there is submitted
to us to consider. It would be purely speculative.
Q97 Chairman: It is not speculative
to say what evidence would have to be accumulated, what offences
would have to have been committed in order to make these Acts
work.
Ms Dowd: What acts would have
to be committed you mean?
Q98 Chairman: No, to make these pieces
of legislation work, to stand up.
Mr Husain: I am not quite sure
what you mean by "work".
Q99 Chairman: To work in terms of
prosecuting anybody.
Mr Husain: If you are saying is
it possible for somebody to be prosecuted under this legislation,
the answer, hypothetically, is yes. Whether it will in these particular
circumstances we will not know until we have had a chance to review
the material that has been provided to us by the police in due
course. It is difficult to go beyond that.
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