Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
20-39)
MR JON
BENJAMIN, MR
DON HORROCKS,
MR DAVID
POLLOCK, MR
STEPHEN SLACK
AND MS
ANDREA WILLIAMS
12 JUNE 2008
Q20 Paul Rowen: Yes.
Mr Horrocks: In answer to the
question, "Is all religion publicly beneficial?", I
would answer, no, it is not, because it clearly is not. If some
group actually manifestly advocates violence, if it enforces—
Q21 Paul Rowen: Most cults do not
do that. They do not go round manifestly—
Mr Horrocks: Some cults do do
that, do they not? Some cults coerce their followers. I think
where coercion is involved, that clearly is not in the public
benefit. For me, the objective criterion is the freedom of choice:
can someone get up and out of it freely or not?
Q22 Paul Rowen: So if Christ appeared
today, would he be a member of a cult or a religion, or would
the rules as now constructed allow him to operate?
Mr Horrocks: Chairman, I would
love a debate on that, but I think you would rule me—
Mr Benjamin: He would probably
be claimed as a humanist by the humanists, as a Jew by the Jews.
Chairman: It is a fascinating question
but it probably takes us wider than we need to go just at the
moment.
Q23 Mr Walker: I am not a particularly
religious person myself, although I like to go to church periodically
for a sing-song and to say goodbye to people who have died and
hello to people being christened, and so on and so forth. I am
pretty relaxed about religion because I recognise, as a lot of
people in my constituency who have had terrible things happen
in their lives, be it prostitution, drug addiction, religion has
provided them with a way out, and that is a good thing and if
people want to be very religious and they want to believe in it,
that is fine. Lots of people believe in socialism still, for example.
At least they used to! But I am interested, Mr Pollock, what actually
does the British Humanist Association do? Do you run soup kitchens
so your followers can express themselves and their commitment
to society? Do you have mother and toddler groups? What is it
that you do that is community-minded and spirited?
Mr Pollock: As an association,
we do not. As I said earlier, humanists like to join in the general
charities, so we support Oxfam, we support other mainstream charities.
Our own survey a few years ago and then a government survey more
recently have shown that the non-religious are equally committed
to voluntary action and public work as the religious. The only
difference lies in the fact that the religious get a slight lead
by supporting their own churches.
Q24 Mr Walker: How many members does
your association have?
Mr Pollock: Our association has
about 8,000 members, but for humanists you have to be a bit obsessive
actually to join!
Q25 Mr Walker: Obviously you give
a lot of your time to this, but do you think your time can be
better spent doing something more constructive than just sort
of being rather hostile towards people who like to get together
under a religious banner and go about their business? Why do you
feel the need to be quite so hostile? You are quite hostile towards
religion.
Mr Pollock: Hostility to religion
is the last thing that the Humanist Association is involved in.
We are involved in trying to seek human rights, including our
own; that is, fair play as between all life stances whether religious
or not. We are concerned in servicing our own community: we provide
ceremonies for funerals, marriages, baby-namings, and the like,
on a growing scale. And we are concerned with education: we are
providing materials for use in schools and more informal educational
material. We have just opened a website called Humanism for Schools,
which is proving very popular.
Q26 Mr Walker: It sounds like a religion
almost, does it not?
Mr Pollock: It is a life stance.
It does provide, in a way, the same function for us as a religion
does for other people; that is it provides us with our answers
to what people have called ultimate questions.
Q27 Mr Walker: The fact that you
call it humanism gives us an umbrella. It is not a bunch of guys
and girls going about their business minding their own business,
you have actually felt the need to call it humanism, which in
a sense is creating a religion of some of sort. It is your own
religion. Paganism, you could argue, is a religion. Do you understand
the potential for some contradiction in your argument?
Mr Pollock: I understand the source
of confusion. "Isms" generally are of that nature. We
are cursed with a name which ends in "ism", but we are
not an "ism" in the sense that there is an ultimate
source of authority, a lord or master who lays down the law or
anything like that. Humanism is a word that we use as a label
for a range of attitudes and, to the extent that you share those
attitudes, you may think that the word humanist is more or less
applicable to you.
Q28 Mr Walker: One last question.
I do regard myself as a very lapsed Christian, but I have always
recognised that you do not have to go to church to be a good person;
so part of me sees what I believe is reflected in you, what you
believe in as well. Is it possible for me to be a kind of Christian
and a kind of humanist at the same time? Are the two compatible?
Mr Pollock: That is entirely a
matter of how you define the words. In the way that we use the
word humanist, no, it would not be, because we use the word humanist
to mean someone whose takes a naturalistic outlook, who does not
believe in anything transcendental or supernatural and the like,
but the word can be used in other ways, and I am the first to
agree to that.
Q29 Mr Walker: Is it possible for
me to be a lapsed Christian and a humanist at the same time, or
am I a man with no home?
Mr Horrocks: I would suggest that
the fundamental philosophy of humanism is actually Christian in
origin. Chairman, with respect, the dignity of the human being
was actually a Christian concept, and the first humanists, like
Loch, famous philosophers, were all Christians who actually promoted
the idea of the dignity of the human being and, of course, from
the enlightenment onwards the idea that the dignity of the human
being could be separated from belief in God became part of our
society. So, David, welcome to the household of faith.
Chairman: I am going to haul us back
in, I think. Charles, that was a cry for spiritual help. If any
of you could see him afterwards it might be of benefit, I think.
Q30 Paul Flynn: Mr Horrocks, do you
believe that homosexuals are evil?
Mr Horrocks: Why are you asking?
Q31 Paul Flynn: Because members of
the Evangelical Alliance, I understand, preach against homosexuals.
Mr Horrocks: Could you explain
why it is relevant to our present topic?
Q32 Paul Flynn: I will tell you why
it is relevant. What we are looking at is whether society should
give a subsidy to groups of people, a subsidy that not all of
society has or all organisations have. You are in a privileged
position, you are asking for this subsidy and having it continue,
and I am asking you whether it should continue if you are doing
something that is not in the public good. You have heard from
Andrea Williams a rather rosy view of Christianity that is entirely
benign, and I am trying to establish the point that not all things
that Christians do are benign or in the public benefit. Let me
ask you again: do members of your Alliance or yourself believe
that homosexuality is evil?
Mr Horrocks: We have supported
publicly gay rights. We are on record as doing so. You can check
that out. Not everybody who supports gay rights is actually acting
in the public interest. Certainly not everyone who is religious
is necessarily doing something in the public interest. All I can
point to you is what publicly the Evangelical Alliance has made
clear.
Q33 Paul Flynn: The members of your
Alliance, are any of those in a position where they regard, for
instance, Muslims---. What is your view? Do you believe that all
Muslims are going to hell?
Mr Horrocks: Religious belief,
by definition, believes in the tenets of its own religion. So
Christianity would affirm the uniqueness of Christ.
Q34 Paul Flynn: That is not my question.
Do you believe that all Muslims, possibly Roman Catholics as well,
are going to hell?
Mr Horrocks: I think what I believe
here is irrelevant to the more important question about whether
or not religions can actually give space to each other with mutual
respect and tolerance while holding to the uniqueness of their
beliefs.
Q35 Paul Flynn: Could you try to
answer the question? I am trying to get at this.
Mr Horrocks: And I am trying to
make it relevant to the discussion.
Q36 Paul Flynn: My contention would
be that you are not always acting for the benefit of the people
who are paying you this subsidy and the taxpayers generally who
might not share your views.
Mr Horrocks: Are you talking about
me personally?
Q37 Paul Flynn: You are speaking
on behalf of an alliance, the Evangelical Alliance.
Mr Horrocks: Overwhelmingly, Evangelical
Alliance members support the public positions of the Evangelical
Alliance, and if there are certain members who actually do not
act in accordance with that, I am sure the Humanist Association
has members who do not act in accordance with them, I am sure
we will—
Q38 Paul Flynn: Do members of your
Alliance believe that women are inferior and should be subordinate
to their husbands?
Mr Horrocks: I have not met many
of them if there are, but you are always going to get mavericks
in any organisation.
Q39 Paul Flynn: Andrea Williams,
would you accept that Christianity is responsible for a great
deal of problems in society, from the divisions in Northern Ireland,
the obvious one here, and Cortez in South America, who, based
on sincere religious belief, took groups of the natives there
and baptised them and then slaughtered them in groups of 13 in
memory of Christ and the 12 apostles and thought that he was doing
good works.
Ms Williams: Of course, sincerity
is not enough, and that was not true Christianity. Where there
is division and strife, that is not the true promotion of the
Christian gospel. Where you see the true promotion of the gospel,
you see charity. One of the great definitions of charity is found
in 1 Corinthians 13, it is the Greek word caris: "Love
is patient, love is kind, love keeps no record of wrong. Love
is charity." That is actually the true definition of charity,
and true Christianity says that you must love God and love your
neighbour. These are basic, wonderful precepts and if we as a
society adhered to those—that principle of loving your neighbour
more than yourself, being ready to give to them—it would
be a great place to be. The truth is that many people who are
of faith are motivated by that, and it makes an extraordinary
difference in the local and global community. Where there are
distortions of a message or distortions of religion or, indeed,
of a political doctrine of anything where there is a distortion—
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