Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
160-179)
DAME JUDITH
MAYHEW JONAS,
DR ANTHONY
SELDON AND
SIR SIMON
JENKINS
2 JULY 2008
Q160 Mr Prentice: I have 2,600. How
can we lose 100 schools like that? Can we have some figures?
Dr Seldon: Obviously, an MoD official
carried them in his bag!
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: We are
quoting the departmental statistic.
Q161 Julie Morgan: As to these different
sectors, are some of them public schools of which we know the
names? Would they all be in your sector and have charitable status?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: Most
of the names you probably recognise would be in our sector.
Q162 Julie Morgan: I return to bursaries.
This may be one of the ways in which charitable status is obtained.
Do you say that £350 million is spent on bursaries?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: At the
moment. Our 2008 census return showed that £350 million per
annum was now being spent on bursaries.
Q163 Julie Morgan: But that may be
a different amount of money for each bursary?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: Yes.
Q164 Julie Morgan: And how many bursaries
are there?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: We know
that 160,000 pupils or 31 % receive bursaries.
Q165 Julie Morgan: What is the range
of figures?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: It goes
from nought to 100 %.
Q166 Julie Morgan: So, it could be
any amount?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: Yes.
Q167 Julie Morgan: To follow the
previous question, how do you choose the children who have the
bursaries?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: That
is not something I do as chairman of the ISC; it is up to the
school.
Dr Seldon: There are two kinds.
If it is a new entrant it will be based on need and ability and
whether the pupil fits in. My school was founded for the orphans
of those who lost their lives in action, and that is now being
extended to those who have fallen in service. They will go straight
to the top of the list. Therefore, it is based on ability and
need at the point of entry, but for many schools a very big category
comprises children who are already at the school but whose parents
lose their jobs or die. No doubt that will be increasingly relevant
over the next few years. You then give money to allow the child
to remain at the school until the end of schooling. That is how
it is done in brief.
Q168 Julie Morgan: So, for those
who get bursaries there is a random element?
Dr Seldon: Yes. Schools assess
a bursary form which is based on need and parental income, value
of house and so on. It tries to be very thorough. Some school
bursars travel round in their cars to inspect the named house
of the child and try to be quite rigorous.
Q169 Julie Morgan: Do you not think
that to go round to view somebody's house to see if they are eligible
is rather demeaning or intrusive to those people?
Dr Seldon: Yes, but it is a case
of finding out whether or not that is a genuine case. One of the
perceived concerns about assisted places was the abuse of the
system which means taking money out of the pot unjustifiably and
that was a widespread perception of the assisted places scheme.
I would applaud schools that try to be rigorous in testing the
truthfulness of the bursary forms.
Q170 Julie Morgan: You said earlier
that you believed your sector had a lot to learn from the state
sector. Can you say quickly what you believe those things are?
Obviously, partnership is one of the ways you believe the charitable
bit will be established.
Dr Seldon: Certainly, professional
development; classroom management; monitoring of pupils; and the
career development and evaluation of the performance of teachers.
One of our partner schools, Nine Stiles in Birmingham, has a classroom
with mirrors down one side and people sit on the other side and
meticulously observe how lessons are being taught. This is excellent.
There is real focus and professionalism. Now the National Leadership
College has got much better and there are real benefits about
the management of departments and pastoral systems and schools.
Not every state school is ahead in all those areas, but in general
those highlight some of them. But it is not just the precise learning;
it is the mixing of the children and teachers, helping them to
realise that they share in common the fact that they are human
beings, so when they go on to university they are far more comfortable
about meeting people to whom it does not matter whether you have
been to a state or independent school. The common experience we
have found in the IPPR study is that teachers and pupils go through
an initial period of suspicion and then learn how much they share
in common. I think that is good and is over and above the professional
learning experiences of what each sector does relatively better
than the other.
Q171 Mr Prentice: I suppose that
for me what sums it up just listening to the discussion is whether
the independent sector is, as Sir Simon tells us, pretend charities;
it is all fraudulent and a bit of a sham. Dame Judith has told
us that is not the case and she is confident that all her member
schools will meet the new public benefit test. Following on the
point about bursaries, what if they start to increase dramatically
the number of bursaries they offer as a way of satisfying the
public interest test and it has the adverse consequences in the
state sector that Dr Seldon talks about?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: I do
not think they will do that. First, it would be very expensive
to do that so unless they raised an endowment they would not be
able to do it. Second, I believe they see these broader forms
of participation in the community as the way ahead.
Q172 Mr Prentice: The partnerships?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: The
partnerships, the sharing of facilities and the teaching of specialist
subjects.
Q173 Mr Prentice: When you share
facilities what does it mean in practice? Are we talking about
sharing teaching time, developing common facilities like playing
fields, sharing very expensive science labs or things at the margin?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: It is
all what you have said and it very much depends on the nature
of the partnerships and the locality in which the schools are
situated. All of those things will be going on.
Q174 Mr Prentice: So, if a school
like Wellington has its shadow academy, its boarders and so on
and sets up a combined cadet force because of the Army connection
and lots of public schools with CCF[1]
squadrons invite academies and sister schools to set up CCFs you
think that will fulfil the public interest test as set out by
the Charity Commission, just to take a specific example?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: I believe
that the department is pursuing this initiative at the moment.
Sir Simon Jenkins: I believe that
at the moment the critical area is playing fields which are very
expensive assets. Most private schools have good playing fields,
gyms and facilities of that sort and they are a real local resource
which are usually very under-used. If I was running one of these
schools, I would regard the playing fields as one of the lead
elements where I genuinely donated an asset to the local community.
Q175 Mr Prentice: Is there an agreement
between the three of you that playing fields ought to be a common
resource?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: Playing
fields and sporting facilities together with coaching. There is
nothing quite like sharing experience when you share team activity
and are working together towards a common goal. Given that we
are about to become the Olympic nation at the end of August it
is really important that in the run-up to the games we do as much
as we can to promote sport throughout our communities because
it has enormous benefit.
Q176 Mr Prentice: Directing my question
to Dame Judith or Anthony Seldon, is there anything in the Charity
Commission guidance in draft form that you find beyond the pail
or just too onerous? Is there anything there to which you would
wish to draw our attention?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: I still
have a basic problem with it because I believe it goes beyond
the scope of the enabling legislation but, taking it in isolation,
it reflects what is already happening. My query is whether when
the regulations come out they will be within the scope of the
Act, and that is something at which we need to look.
Q177 Mr Prentice: You tell us that
it is already happening. One of the things the Charity Commission
recommends is reporting on public benefit. It tells us that charity
trustees have a new duty to report in their annual report on the
charity's public benefit.
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: And
that is something we welcome.
Q178 Mr Prentice: Is it happening
at the moment? I know this is a new requirement, but surely if
you're raking in a lot of subsidies, hidden and overt, from charitable
status good practice is to make clear and explicit what the charitable
benefits are?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: I think
you will find that already many charities outline their public
benefit.
Q179 Mr Prentice: But we do not have
any figures?
Dame Judith Mayhew Jonas: We do
not have figures at the moment because, again, we await the regulations,
but if you look at the website of the Charity Commission and some
of the returns you will find the public benefits listed not just
in the school sector but the arts sector.
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