Examination of Witnesses (Questions 41
- 59)
TUESDAY 12 DECEMBER 2006
MS CARRON
MCDIARMID,
MS CAROL
GREER AND
MS PHILOMENA
DE LIMA
Q41 Chairman:
Good morning and welcome. Perhaps you would introduce yourselves?
Ms Greer: My name is Carol Greer.
I am the Advisory Officer for Citizens Advice Scotland. The area
I cover is Highland, the Western Isles and Grampian. My remit
is to support the Citizens Advice Bureaux that are operating in
that area.
Ms McDiarmid: My name is Carron
McDiarmid. I am Head of Policy and Performance with the Highland
Council.
Ms de Lima: My name is Philomena
de Lima. I work for a unit called the UHI Policy Web at the University
of the Highlands and Islands. It aims to generate research and
debate on the way in which policies impact on rural communities.
Q42 Chairman:
Before we start with detailed questions, would you like to make
opening statements?
Ms McDiarmid: Yes. Thank you very
much for the opportunity to give evidence to the Committee today.
I hope you found the study tour helpful yesterday, but I have
a sense that you will have found that it is not very easy to see
poverty in the Highlands and it is not as conspicuous in rural
settings as it is in urban setting. That is largely because of
our population pattern, meaning it is dispersed. You will not
find concentrations of poverty where you do not have concentrations
of people, it is really that simple. Also, the nature of a settlement
pattern in rural areas means that you have very affluent households
living next door to poorer households. Very often that can mask
the extent of poverty which exists in rural areas. I think also
in our written submission to the Committee we set out our sense
of the nature of rural poverty and that covered issues around
low wage and income levels, the extent of part-time working, which
is higher certainly in Highland than other parts of the country,
and a higher level of seasonal employment and seasonal unemployment.
In addition to that there is an interesting rural dimension to
income status in older age and some very useful research which
was done by some academics in Aberdeen University, which basically
found that older people in remote and rural areas are indeed the
poorest people. In Highland we have a population which is ageing
faster than elsewhere in the country, so this is a real concern
for us. We have heard also this morning that the nature of rural
life brings extra costs, a car is an essential item rather than
a luxury, food and fuel prices are higher and that coupled with
isolation and a lack of access to services can make life a lot
harder in rural areas. We also have some defined fragile areas
within Highland and these are defined as areas that suffer from
remoteness, an ageing population, poor access to services as well
as a lack of economic opportunity. In terms of targeting rural
poverty, we need to look at fragility rather than an urban approach
which looks at concentrations of multiple deprivations. In the
written submission we provided we supplied information on the
extent of fuel poverty in Highland. I am not sure if you want
to ask questions about that, I can provide some information on
that in a moment. That is a real problem, not just in Highland
but for all of rural Scotland where you are much more likely to
be fuel poor if you live in a rural area and there are lots of
reasons for that. Access to services is another issue, and the
council tries hard to make sure that service delivery is kept
local to keep jobs and services available to people. Also in our
submission I think we mentioned the costs of providing services
to super sparse areas where we do not have additional Government
funding to deliver services which cost more to deliver because
we do not have economies of scale. I have some figures on that
if you are interested. That is all I would like to say just now.
Ms de Lima: Is it possible for
me to pick up on a couple of points which were raised in the previous
discussion?
Q43 Chairman:
Yes, if you would like to, but very briefly.
Ms de Lima: Basically, I think
there was an issue discussed around the lack of public transport
and the way in which that is a barrier. Lack of transport could
be a big barrier in terms of getting into work and I know you
have a particular interest in getting people who are out of work
into work. One possible way of overcoming some of the transport
problems might be to provide some sort of grant or loan system
for young people who would like to get into work but do not have
access to a car, for example. That could be one way of providing
some support for people initially to get into work by providing
them with some kind of grant or subsidy initially to get them
on their feet. That is one possibility and it has been suggested
by researchers before[35]
when they have looked at rural poverty. I do not know how complex
it is because I do not know enough about it, but hypothecation
of, for example, fuel duties in rural areas could be used to be
reinvested in transport measures[36].
You might look at things like subsidised taxes for targeted groups,
dial-a-ride schemes and community transport, so there might be
a way of generating an income to enable transport initiatives
to take place at a local level, although I do not know the practicalities
of how the fuel duty might be hypothecated. I just wanted to make
those two points.
Ms Greer: Many of the problems
which Carron has alluded to apply also to the kind of clients
we see. There is very clear evidence from the clients who come
to Citizens Advice Bureaux in rural areas of income deprivation:
low income; employment issues, particularly low wage and seasonal
employment; fuel poverty; debt, particularly housing and homelessness;
and access to services. We obviously have our own challenges trying
to provide services to clients in rural areas. We share many of
the same problems as the other agencies in that respect. We are
finding particularly that the withdrawal of services like Jobcentre
Plus is having an adverse effect on our clients, and we have produced
quite a lot of social policy evidence to that effect. There are
issues around the withdrawal of local advice and support services
for people who have an expectation of agencies like Citizens Advice
Bureaux filling that gap without necessarily the resources being
provided to us to do that. I have got some statistics for you
for Highland for client use of our services if you are interested,
but very broadly just to give you an idea. For April 2005 to March
2006, within Highland we dealt with nearly 11,500 issues relating
to benefits and of those 2,500-ish related to disability benefits
or disabled person's tax credits. Those are people who have particular
access problems. Over 2,500 issues related to debt, just over
2,600 related to employment and about the same number related
to housing. As Carron said, it is difficult sometimes to see those
poor people but our statistics bear out that they do exist and
they can be hard to access. As I say, we are particularly finding
that clients are affected by closures of Jobcentre Plus and other
local support. In terms of resourcing, we are also very concerned
about the use of the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation because
we do not think it identifies the hard to reach people in remote
rural areas and a look needs to be given to that as it is used
as a way of identifying where resources are going to go. We do
not think that is appropriate for remote rural areas. The other
quick issue to mention perhaps is the possibility of looking at
discretionary travel passes for people with disabilities. At the
moment only about one-fifth of CAB clients with disabilities have
those discretionary passes, and it could make a significant difference
to them if more of them have those. Similarly, access to financial
support for fuel expenditure for people with disabilities who
are aged under 60 in our view would be something worth considering.
Just to reiterate many of the issues we come across are ones you
will have heard about yesterday and from other witnesses today.
Q44 Chairman:
Thank you. There are a number of factors contributing towards
poverty, but in your view what is the single biggest factor contributing
to poverty in the Highlands?
Ms Greer: I think our evidence
would suggest low income for a number of different reasons. If
you look at the statistics for the clients coming to CABs, as
I say, by far and away the biggest number are to do with welfare
benefits, which suggests issues to do with income.
Ms McDiarmid: I would agree, it
is the nature of the rural economy where average pay in the Highland
is 91% of the Scottish average and 86% of the UK average, but
also a higher rate of part-time and seasonal working.
Q45 Mr Walker:
Can I pick you up on that. When we were going to do poverty in
the Highlands and heard about the disparity in wages, I got frightfully
concerned. Then when you hear it is 86% of the UK average I am
less concerned when you factor in the cost of housing in parts
of the east of England and the Midlands. Despite the growth in
the economy over here the housing costs are significantly lower
than they are in large parts of England. Really an income of 86%
superficially does not seem that big a deal. You could argue that
a lot of people would be a lot better off than a lot of their
contemporaries in the east of England, the Midlands, earning significantly
more. That 86% masks a lot of people who are earning a great deal
less because we have sat in some rooms on this visit where you
have had a couple of GPs sitting in the room with you and, of
course, that significantly skews average earnings in the room
by tens if not twenties of thousands. Really, the 86% is almost
a red herring. Where are the greatest disparities in earnings
in the Highlands? What communities really are struggling, and
what would be the differentials between that 86% and the reality
of their daily annual incomes? Do you understand what I am saying?
Ms McDiarmid: Yes. It is not possible
to say, "This community is more disadvantaged or poorer than
another", because in a rural setting you have rich and poor
people living next door to each other. You have to view the landscape
differently in trying to understand rural poverty. The issue about
house prices is an interesting one. I would agree that generally
house prices tend to be lower, but in some communities within
Highland, particularly those on the West Coast, very attractive
communities and very appealing for people to move in to retire
there who can afford the houses, house prices are entirely out
of the reach of local people who could be working in seasonal
jobs only or are on very low incomes. Those people are having
to leave those communities because they cannot afford to stay
there, they cannot afford to compete in a market where houses
are sold to people who are retired moving into the area or they
are sold because they have B&B potential.
Q46 Mr Walker:
That is the same across the UK, that is just not cued into the
Highlands. If you go to Cornwall, to Devon, anywhere, that is
an issue. House pricing is an issue for many young people and
many people of all age groups, how do they access the housing
market? That in itself is something which I do not think is unique
to the Highlands. I am still concerned as to why you cannot identify
rural pockets of poverty. We went to Bonar Bridge and when I mentioned
this 86% I was nearly lynched by the audience: "What, we
are earning £18,800, of course we are not earning anything
like £18,800 a year". I was nearly lynched by them.
I had to say, "These are figures not from me but from Scottish
Enterprise and the National Statistics Office". Their view
is that the vast majority of people in Bonar Bridge are earning
significantly less than 86% of the national average. Can you give
me an indication of what the average wage of Bonar Bridge is compared
with the national average?
Ms McDiarmid: That information
is not available.
Q47 Mr Walker:
Why is it not available? Do you not collect it?
Ms McDiarmid: The source of information
we use for that is the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings and
those figures relate to 2005, it is not designed to look at that
level.
Q48 Mr Walker:
So it is the 86%?
Ms McDiarmid: The council has
asked for a long time to be able to have information on incomes,
possibly through Inland Revenue. That information has not been
made available for social policy purposes and it is a real gap
in our understanding.
Q49 Mr Walker:
I bet it is.
Ms McDiarmid: We have to use what
is available to us. In terms of trying to identify communities,
the Government statistics this year from the 2006 Scottish Index
of Multiple Deprivation has quantified that there are nearly 24,000
income deprived people living in Highland, that is the Government's
figures, but 84% of that number are located outwith the areas
where multiple deprivation is concentrated. For example, in applying
policy across Scotland, the Index of Multiple Deprivation has
been used to target resources at the 15% most deprived communities.
When we look at that figure for Highland, 84% of income deprived
are outwith those communities, so it is much more dispersed because
their settlement pattern is dispersed and diffuse.
Q50 Danny Alexander:
I think this is a very important point which both you and Ms Greer
also made. If the formula that is used to assess deprivation is
concentrating on targeting funds towards poverty in a geographical
concentration then the way in which poverty exists in the Highlands
and Islands is not going to be addressed by that funding formula.
Ms McDiarmid: Absolutely.
Ms Greer: That is exactly it.
Q51 Danny Alexander:
This may be a particular question for the council because I am
sure this is a question on which you are in regular discussions
with the Scottish Executive about, for example. Are there other
features of poverty in the Highlands and Islands that you think
can be taken into account in those calculations to ensure that
while not in any way wishing to take away from the serious problems
which exist in urban communities where geographical concentrations
of poverty are much easier to identify, a fair share of funds
to help address poverty could be made much more available where
poverty exists in this very spread out and dispersed way?
Ms McDiarmid: Yes. I have to say,
the Index which was revised this year did take into account better
information in terms of access to services and we were very grateful
for that. However, one key indicator of poverty is fuel poverty
and that is not included at all in the Index. Within the Index
there is a housing domain which looks at different housing features,
but fuel poverty is not included. Fuel poverty is much more prevalent
in rural Scotland than the rest of Scotland.
Q52 Danny Alexander:
It seems utterly astonishing that fuel poverty is not included
in a formula which is used to allocate funds to tackle poverty.
That seems utterly bizarre. Is there a reason you have been given
for that?
Ms McDiarmid: The reason we have
been given is that the information is not available at the data
zone level, but we have good information on fuel poverty from
the Scottish House Condition Survey. For example, the last survey
in 2003 identified that one in five households in Highland were
in fuel poverty. Fuel poverty is defined as if a household spends
more than 10% of its income on household fuel. Fuel poverty affects
vulnerable people disproportionately, so older people, people
who have a disability who may be at home or families with children
who need the heating on all the time are disproportionately affected.
One in three of the pensioner households in Highland at that time
were regarded as being in fuel poverty. Since then electricity
prices have gone up by over 60% and oil prices and gas prices
have risen, so we can only assume that is a real underestimate
of the prevalence of fuel poverty in the Highlands.
Q53 Chairman:
Do you not think it is important to identify the pockets which
are the most deprived areas? I will give you one example. In my
own constituency, which I represented until last year, Pollokshaws,
was the most deprived area in my constituency, but when the statistics
came from the council, because one of the rich areas was connected
with this pocket, all of the figures were high in terms of employment
and earnings but then we questioned the council, "Why do
you not do the survey specifically for this pocket?" and
that was the most deprived area in Glasgow. Obviously if you want
to tackle poverty in those pockets which are the most deprived
then you have to have figures for that particular pocket.
Ms McDiarmid: There is absolutely
no denying the need to tackle concentrations of multiple deprivation,
however our point is that there is more than one geography of
poverty. In rural communities poverty is placed differently because
of the settlement pattern. 40% of our population in Highland live
within communities of less than 1,000 people. That is a massive
proportion of our population living in dispersed and diffuse communities.
You cannot identify concentrations of poverty if your population
is not concentrated.
Q54 Mr Davidson:
Can you identify individuals? What are you doing at the moment
to target council services at poor people?
Ms McDiarmid: A number of things.
There are universal services obviously which the council provides,
including our education service.
Q55 Mr Davidson:
I understand that.
Ms McDiarmid: Specific services
around fuel poverty, the council has got its own housing stock,
it has a programme of warm and dry improvements where the majority
of its capital funding is invested. For example, last year over
five million pounds was used to bring energy efficiency improvements
to around 1,000 homes.
Q56 Mr Davidson:
Is that only on poor people's homes?
Ms McDiarmid: That is on council
houses.
Q57 Mr Davidson:
No, the point I am making to you is what are you doing specifically
targeted at poor people, these poor people who are dispersed?
What in particular do you do for them?
Ms McDiarmid: In terms of council
housing we focus our improvements on the lowest energy efficiency.
Q58 Mr Davidson:
That is the house, you are targeting that at the house and there
might be five earners living in the house, so that particular
house will not necessarily be occupied by somebody who is poor
because you are doing a street.
Ms McDiarmid: Generally they will
be poorer than home owners.
Q59 Mr Davidson:
In general but not necessarily.
Ms McDiarmid: Other things are
to improve rural transport.
35 Note from witness: Shucksmith, M (2000)
`Exclusive Countryside? Social Inclusion and regeneration in rural
areas, Joseph Rowntree Foundation at www.jrf.org.uk Back
36
Note from witness: see Shucksmith, 2000. Back
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