Examination of Witnesses (Questions 414
- 419)
TUESDAY 13 MARCH 2007
MR DOUGLAS
HAMILTON, MS
CLAIRE TELFER
AND MR
JASON STRELITZ
Q414 Chairman:
Good afternoon and welcome to today's witnesses in our inquiry
into poverty in Scotland. Can you please introduce yourselves
for the record.
Ms Telfer I am Claire Telfer,
the Policy and Parliamentary Officer for Save the Children in
Scotland.
Mr Hamilton: Douglas Hamilton,
Head of Policy and Research for Save the Children in Scotland.
Mr Strelitz: Jason Strelitz, UK
Poverty Policy Advisor for Save the Children.
Q415 Chairman:
Before we start on the detailed questions, would you like to make
an opening statement?
Mr Hamilton: Just further on the
introductions, it is probably worth saying that for the evidence
today Claire and myself will hopefully be able to give you a lot
more detail about our experiences in Scotland whereas Jason will
be able to give you a lot more detail on the information generally
on poverty and our position on a lot of the issues relating to
welfare rights, et cetera. We would like to thank you for this
opportunity to give evidence. I suppose it is worth saying at
the start that there is an element of frustration about the fact
that we are giving evidence on an issue such as child poverty,
the frustration being that an organisation such as Save the Children
is continuing to have to campaign on this issue and that we still
have not resolved many of the problems that are facing some of
the most disadvantaged children living in Scotland. On the other
hand, the positive aspect is that at least it has not gone off
people's radar and we really welcome the fact that you are conducting
this inquiry and the fact that we are continuing to pay attention
to the issues and the needs of these children. The key issue that
we want to highlight for you in our evidence is the situation
facing children living in severe and persistent poverty in Scotland.
Thousands of children are going without basic items that most
of us would take for granted; properly fitting shoes or a warm
winter coat. Undoubtedly there has been progress in Scotland in
tackling overall child poverty and the 2005 target for reducing
child poverty was met in Scotland, but I think the greatest challenge
is still with us. What is clear is that the policies that are
in place, both at a Scottish Executive level and from Whitehall,
are not reaching the very poorest children and their families.
Our evidence shows that the situation facing the poorest children
and their families has not improved and indeed in some areas of
Scotland may be getting worse. We want to highlight the reality
of poverty as parents and children have told us about their experiences.
Parents we have talked to have told us of their despair in thinking
that they will never have enough to live on. At the same time
they are telling us that they are doing their best and are proud
of what they are able to achieve on meagre resources and the fact
that they are going without things themselves in order to provide
for their children. More importantly, we also want to stress what
children and young people have told us about how severe poverty
affects them. It affects their future life chances. We know that
it affects their employability and their health outcomes, but
the reality is that it is having a real impact on their lives
just now, and our message is that children cannot wait. Children
tell us about the basics that they miss out on—having a
warm home, having warm clothes. They do not necessarily want things
that are fancy or luxury items. A lot of the children we talk
to just want the essentials. There was one young person who told
us, "It doesn't matter about having designer clothes, we
just want something warm to put on." It is not just about
material items that they are missing out on. What is even more
distressing is when young people tell us about their inability
to take part in the day-to-day life of what it means to be a child;
basic childhood experiences, doing things that other children
do, going swimming, going on school trips, again simple requests
that every child should be able to take part in. So we are pleased
that you are doing this inquiry and today we want to stress the
importance of joint working between Holyrood and Westminster towards
a shared goal of ending child poverty and also to take the opportunity
to flag up some of the policies such as seasonal grants that we
think could be introduced at Westminster that would have a significant
impact on children living in poverty in Scotland.
Q416 Chairman:
Thank you. We have taken evidence from witnesses on general poverty
issues and this is our first evidence session when we are concentring
on the practical aspects of poverty. We are focusing on child
poverty because previous witnesses have suggested to us that child
poverty was probably the most important priority to tackle. Would
you actually agree with such an assessment, or would you agree
more with NCH Scotland, who took the view that the best way to
alleviate child poverty is to alleviate the poverty experienced
by their parents and guardians?
Mr Hamilton: I think we would
be the first to agree that child poverty is actually the key issue
here. I think child poverty is the thing that we should be concentrating
on. Parental poverty is clearly part of the picture, and children
live in families and live in households so we cannot ignore the
poverty that is going on around them, and parental poverty is
key as part of the solution. However, in order to achieve what
we want to achieve we have to retain the focus on children and
their experiences. I think we could be talking about family poverty
generally and that type of stuff, but it is about children and
having an holistic view of the child and the impact, as I was
saying earlier on, that it is having on children now as well as
the future implications of growing up in severe poverty in Scotland.
Most of the key interventions that we have at the moment are probably
parent-focused. We recognise that most of the policy solutions
we are looking at are about getting more money for parents, but
alongside that we have got to look at the interventions and things
we can do to improve children's experiences more widely within
the community and also look at the life chances of children.
Q417 Chairman:
If the parents are experiencing poverty certainly that is going
to have some kind of impact on children, so do you not think that
we have to tackle both, the child poverty and the parental poverty?
Mr Hamilton: Absolutely. I suppose
I was trying to get across that we should keep the focus on child
poverty and tackling parent poverty is a very important part of
the solution in order to tackle child poverty.
Q418 Mr Davidson:
This distinction that you make between tackling parental poverty
and tackling child poverty, given that the parents will be the
operators of the finance of the house, I am not quite clear how
you can make that sort of distinction. It is not as if we can
direct benefits directly to children as distinct from via their
parents. Can you just clarify that for me?
Mr Hamilton: I was not trying
to make a distinction between parent and child poverty; I was
just trying to respond to the question. We just see it as child
poverty and in addressing child poverty you have got to address
the poverty of the parents, quite clearly, as you have set out.
It is about getting more income into the household. By focusing
on child poverty we have got to look at an holistic view because
child poverty is not always just about income; it is also about
the social exclusion that they face and about their participation
in society, and so when we are tackling child poverty, income
is the biggest issue that we need to address but it is not the
only part. Retaining the holistic view and making sure that we
are also tackling the issues of life chances, participation in
society, and taking part in things that other children are taking
part in are also important. That is why we want to retain the
focus on child poverty.
Q419 Danny Alexander:
I appreciate that it was not a distinction that you introduced
but it does highlight quite an important issue because if we define
poverty purely in terms of income, as Ian says, then you can only
really operate to tackle child poverty through the medium of their
parents or guardians, and I guess that probably then brings out
another point which is in an income sense you cannot really measure
child poverty except by measuring the income of their parents
or guardians. It may be that there are some parents or guardians
who are passing more of the money on to the children so that perhaps
the parent might be experiencing poverty but the child is not,
as in fact I think you say in your submission, but in terms of
measuring and therefore targeting policy you cannot do it. What
you seem to be saying now is that there needs to be a broader
definition of poverty and there are some things like experience
of school and other factors in the community which can be targeted
directly at children without being through the medium of their
family situation.
Mr Hamilton: If we are talking
about measurement I will get Jason to come in here on that. Levels
of income are central to the whole measurement around child poverty.
Already the DWP have introduced measures around deprivation to
try and build in other factors so that we can have a better measurement
of what it means for a child living in poverty. I do not know
if you want to say something about measurement, Jason.
Mr Strelitz: I think the only
thing to add there is there is a broad range of ways in which
poverty is measured and one thing that is missing right now is
a child perspective measure of what it means to live in poverty,
and it is something that we have identified and something we hope
to work on over the next year to develop a child-focused measure
that comes from children's views of what matters to them and their
standard of living and their perception of well-being rather than
an adult expert view of well-being.
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