Examination of Witnesses (Questions 814
- 819)
MONDAY 26 NOVEMBER 2007
MR STEWART
MAXWELL MSP, MR
JAMIE HAMILTON,
MR MIKE
PALMER AND
MR NEIL
LANGHORN
Q814 Chairman:
Good afternoon. I would like to welcome Mr Maxwell and other witnesses
to our session on poverty in Scotland. Before we start on the
detailed questions, would you like to make any opening remarks?
Mr Maxwell: Thank you very much,
Chairman. It is a pleasure to be here today. I am told I am the
first Scottish Government minister to appear before a Westminster
committee so it is a pleasure to be the first and I am sure I
will not be the last. I look forward to this committee session.
I think there are a lot of areas of work that both the UK Government
and the Scottish Government share in terms of tackling poverty
and in particular child poverty and, as you will be aware, we
certainly support the UK Government's targets in terms of halving
by 2010 and eradicating by 2020. With those few remarks I look
forward to hearing your questions and hopefully answering them
as well as I can.
Q815 Chairman:
What is the current status of the Scottish Executive's Closing
The Opportunity Gap programme?
Mr Maxwell: Clearly, it is still
the current position that the Government has the Closing The Opportunity
Gap targets in place. They are ongoing at the moment. The new
Government is reviewing those particular targets and that programme
for a number of reasons. First, some of the targets, we think,
will be met, some might be met and there are a few that clearly
will not be met. It is timeous that we should review them at this
time in terms of whether or not that is the way we want to go.
I think over and above that, obviously with the new overarching
strategic objectives that the Government has and national outcome
indicators, this takes us on to new ground and new territory.
Again, in those circumstances it is appropriate that we review
the Closing The Opportunity Gap programme and any decisions about
the future of that programme or any changes or replacements to
it will be announced in the near future.
Q816 Chairman:
Thank you, Mr Maxwell. Before I ask the next question, perhaps
the other witnesses could introduce themselves.
Mr Langhorn: My name is Neil Langhorn,
Head of the Antipoverty Strategy Team in the Social Inclusion
Division in the Scottish Government.
Mr Palmer: I am Mike Palmer and
I head up the Social Inclusion Division.
Mr Hamilton: I am Jamie Hamilton.
I am from the Social Housing Division with responsibility for
fuel poverty.
Q817 Chairman:
How has the Scottish Executive policy on poverty changed since
the change of administration in Scotland? Can you see any visible
difference from the previous administration in your policies in
tackling poverty?
Mr Maxwell: I would say two things
on that, Chairman. First, we want to build on the work of the
previous administrations. Over the past eight years we have been
very supportive of, much of the work that was done by the two
previous administrations. I think there is a shared agenda on
much of the work in terms of poverty across the Parliament, so
there is no radical difference in terms of a sudden change, if
that is the nature of your question. The second point I would
want to make is it is very early days. We have only been in power
for approximately five and a half, six months. We are reviewing
a number of the programmes, we are looking at some of the new
evidence and statistics that are coming forward at this time and,
as I have said, in terms of the Closing The Opportunity Gap, for
instance, we are reviewing that and we will make an announcement
on that soon in terms of how we want to take that forward. There
is no radical departure from the previous administration. It is
more of a continuity and building on the work that has already
been done.
Q818 Chairman:
Obviously there is a big gap between the rich and poor. What is
your strategy to narrow the gap between the rich and poor in Scotland?
Mr Maxwell: There are a number
of strands to that clearly, not just in terms of straight financial
differences between rich and poor but more importantly I think
almost is the impact that difference has in terms of health inequalities,
for example. We have established a ministerial task force on health
inequalities because clearly the differences in healthy life expectancy
between the richest in our society and the poorest have been growing
over recent years and we are very concerned about that particular
problem. We want to reduce health inequalities and that is why
we have set up that cross-ministerial group to look at that. It
has only been established now a couple of months so it is early
days. There are a number of areas, though, that we are working
on. We are looking to update the Index of Multiple Deprivation
in terms of funding. We have just announced that we have launched
a single deprivation fund on tackling poverty which amounts to
£145 million of spend a year directly into the areas of most
difficulty of deprivation in our communities. I think there are
a number of areas. We also fund work on financial inclusion, we
also work closely with the DWP in terms of work, benefits and
getting people back into work and certainly one of our main focuses
is getting people back into work and onto a sustainable career
rather than just a job, because we believe fundamentally it is
only through growing the economy and providing more work for our
citizens that people will find a path out of poverty in the long
term.
Q819 Mr Davidson:
Could I pick up the point about inequality and, in particular,
the point about people moving into work. One of the issues that
was raised with us on a number of occasions, particularly in the
Highlands, was the importance of the national minimum wage for
those who were working in industries that were unorganised by
unions and particularly, again, in rural areas. Has that been
your view, as a Scottish Executive, because we are interested
in exploring ways in which we can help people into work, but there
is no point in getting them into work if the wages are poor and
they remain in poverty. It has seemed to us from the evidence
we have had that moving up the national minimum wage is one of
the most important ways of doing that. I wonder whether you supported
that or you had an alternative perspective?
Mr Maxwell: To be honest, no,
I would agree that the national minimum wage is a very important
factor in establishing a safety net for many people who otherwise
would have wages much below what is acceptable. I think there
is obviously a debate and an argument about where that level is
set in terms of the minimum wage and, clearly, we would like to
see people not only to get on to jobs which are minimum wage jobs
but effectively sustained jobs which give them the opportunity
to grow their own wages in terms of career progression. One of
the biggest problems that many of the groups in Scotland who operate
here have come to me with is the "working poor", that
phrase which I think describes, unfortunately, many people who
have never been unemployed, who have been employed their whole
lives, but still find themselves in poverty. Clearly, that is
a very difficult group to tackle. I think the major ways to tackle
that are through the tax and benefits system which are reserved
to the UK Government.
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