Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
MR MARTYN
PELLEW, MR
FRANK ROBOTHAM,
MR DAVID
WHITEHEAD AND
MR RICHARD
BIRD
6 FEBRUARY 2008
Q200 Chairman: Yes, but in order
to do something about that, as you know the Government abandoned
one scheme and is now looking at another. You are not really suggesting
that an alteration of taxation on derv would change people using
the short sea route, are you?
Mr Pellew: I think it is one of
a number of options, such as road pricing as well as looking at
the rates of tax on derv.
Q201 Chairman: I think we should
put you in charge of transport, Mr Pellew!
Mr Pellew: I am always available
for a new opportunity.
Q202 Chairman: You might not necessarily
last very long, but it would be very good value while you did!
Mr Pellew: The current incumbents
do not always either!
Q203 Clive Efford: Is it down to
the European Union or is it down to the Government to determine
what it makes of the Motorways of the Sea?
Mr Whitehead: If people want to
apply for it, the Government is very much involved and I have
to say that again getting Government cooperation in schemes that
get money out of the Commission is not an easy thing to do.
Q204 Chairman: In what sense, Mr
Whitehead? Nobody minds you having a moan, but tell us precisely
why?
Mr Whitehead: They do not give
a lot of support in finding your way through the bureaucracy and
the paperwork. We just do not have the resources within the DfT
to do that kind of thing and I think other Member States have
a lot of resources dedicated to that.
Q205 Clive Efford: Tell us what stands
in the way then of making more of the Motorways of the Sea and
linking up ports, even some of the small ports, to the North?
What is it the Government would have to get out of the EU in order
to create a system which would provide greater distribution around
the British Isles?
Mr Whitehead: Perhaps we have
a fundamental difficulty. The Government is not necessarily looking
at that greater distribution, I think, in the sense you are talking
about and there is a suspicion that any grant assistance in this
way might distort the market. There are big issues with possible
distortions which arise out of these schemes. It is not a UK way
of doing things.
Clive Efford: What does that mean?
Q206 Chairman: Now I am confused.
We want the money but we do not want it given to us the way they
are handling it at the moment because there are too many forms
attached?
Mr Whitehead: Well, it is a difficult
and bureaucratic system, as I said.
Q207 Chairman: I do not think the
European Union is noted for either its efficiency or its streamlining
of bureaucracy, but perhaps I have missed something.
Mr Whitehead: I do not think you
missed anything. I think I have said it already, the difficulties
of applying for the scheme, but I think there is a fundamental
difficulty within Government here. Giving any sort of grant assistance
in connection with a port creates great difficulty and difficulties
of distortion of competition.
Q208 Clive Efford: I am tempted to
ask you to define the UK way of doing things, but I think -
Mr Whitehead: Well, the UK way
of doing things is to largely leave it to the market.
Mr Robotham: To some extent it
is not necessarily a UK port issue. The incentive really for Motorways
of the Sea is for the shipping lines who believe they can make
use of such incentive to identify a route which will give them
the benefit, and certainly we have got one major customer who
is involved in a motorway application specifically to get into
a market whereby he will transfer cargo from road to sea to use
one of our ports.
Q209 Chairman: Is that a European-based
company, Mr Robotham?
Mr Robotham: It is a UK-based
company involved in European transport.
Q210 Chairman: So it is a British
company which picks the terms and conditions under which the grant
could be given and they are looking seriously at whether they
can do it, is that what you are saying?
Mr Robotham: Very seriously.
Q211 Chairman: So it cannot be all
that difficult really when there is money at the end?
Mr Robotham: Personally, I think
one part of our responsibility is to encourage some of our customers
to look at the ideas of Motorways of the Sea. So give them some
of the ideas to say, "Have you considered this as a way of
encouraging traffic and modal change which could be to the benefit
of your business and therefore our business?" To some extent
we have, I would say, a bit of a closed mind to this because at
the end of the day our port industry is different from Europe.
Our port industries are businesses, so we are running them as
businesses, whereas our Continental colleagues have a slightly
different approach to their infrastructure and are more used to
this element of bureaucracy than we are. So we might not spend
as much time on it, but our response really should be to encourage
our customers to at least look at this incentive to see if it
meets with the needs, and certainly we have got one major customer
who is taking the Motorways of the Sea initiative very, very seriously
in modal shift because they believe that is to their economic
advantage.
Chairman: Can we move on?
Q212 Clive Efford: The Road Haulage
Association suggests that rather than weighing lorries when they
arrive in the UK they should be weighed at the port of embarkation
and that this would reduce delays and problems. Do you agree with
that?
Mr Whitehead: Yes, can I take
that up, because we do have a lot of problems, especially with
real hotspots of rail/road traffic. Dover is the best example
where they carry out a lot of vehicle checks. They weigh the lorries,
they carry out checks, and it has been a great difficulty to accommodate
those checks, so it would make sense to do something at the port
of origin. I think there is a connected issue in that there is
an issue of some substandard lorries making their way across a
lot of countries and eventually being detected here, and it seems
daft that they are able to do that. They should be detected in
the countries they originate from. So I think there are some market
reasons here and some basic safety reasons for doing that.
Q213 Clive Efford: Just to press
you a little bit more, you are suggesting that it is not just
at the ports, there needs to be more enforcement even further
afield?
Mr Whitehead: I think there should
be, yes, because with some other Member States we have serious
problems with some of the standards of the lorries.
Q214 Chairman: Could you name one
or two, because it is a secret and I think if we are ever going
to have any impact we need to have evidence?
Mr Whitehead: Yes. The Republic
of Ireland is an example. We had a report from VOSA not too long
ago and I know the Government here has tried to make this point
to the Irish Government that it is not acceptable to have lorries
of this standard coming over, but that is a matter for another
time.
Q215 Chairman: So where would they
be picked up, at Milford Haven or in Liverpool?
Mr Whitehead: It tends to be on
the west coast, yes, Holyhead and Liverpool in particular. There
is a lot of VOSA checks there.
Q216 Clive Efford: Is this a general
thing, or are there specific rogue traders that you would be concerned
about that could be targeted, perhaps, for inspection?
Mr Whitehead: I think targeting
is a good expression to use. I think there could be some sensible
targeting of particular countries, I suppose, in doing this and
making representations to those countries to do something about
the standard.
Q217 Clive Efford: What about the
impact on the ports of origin? Do you think checking the lorries
before they embark has implications there?
Mr Whitehead: Possibly, but I
think this is an issue which should be taken outside the ports,
quite frankly, checks carried out outside the ports is a good
way. Checks tend to be taken at ports because it is a convenient
place to take them, but there are other places.
Mr Robotham: In Liverpool we have
customers operating Irish Sea services and I am certainly aware
that one of them weighs all its vehicles prior to loading them
onto vessels, also to understand how much weight they are putting
on the vessel itself. So it is not to check the vehicle per se
for regulatory purposes but to make sure they are working their
ships in a safe way in terms of loading capacity, and that is
just done as part of the process of booking the vehicles into
the ship.
Q218 Chairman: Does it work in reverse
order? I can understand if you are loading, obviously you must
know exactly what you are doing, but are you suggesting it works
in reverse order from Irish ports for your ships?
Mr Robotham: I am not aware of
what goes on in Dublin or Belfast, I am sorry, in terms of weighing.
Q219 Chairman: But you must have
agents in the ports who can tell you whether or not you are operating
a nicely balanced cargo, or are you thinking of losing a few for
the insurance?
Mr Robotham: No, the logic will
be that if a line is operating between Liverpool and Dublin and
weighing vehicles in Liverpool, it will almost certainly be weighing
vehicles in Dublin as well.
Chairman: That is what I need to know.
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