Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-352)
MR SIMON
SALEM, MR
MIKE GARRATT,
MR JAMES
TRIMMER AND
MR JOHN
SPENCER
6 FEBRUARY 2008
Q340 Chairman: That does not make
them altogether unique, unfortunately, and they are not all in
inland waterways, believe me!
Mr Spencer: No, that is absolutely
true, but people do need to be able to communicate. When they
cannot it is a real issue. We find that we have got lots of young
lads who come along and what we do is not easy, you know. What
we do is tidal and it means you cannot go out on a Friday night
because you know the tide is at ten o'clock at night.
Q341 Chairman: I have known some
watermen who would find that a difficult condition, but perhaps
they were working in a different industry!
Mr Spencer: To be honest, I struggle
to see what Government can do because kids can do other things
than this, so that is one of the big issues we have got. Kids
can very readily go and work in, if you like, Tesco's or Sainsbury's,
have set hours and life is easy for them. Doing what we do is
not easy. They can earn more money, but it is not easy.
Q342 Chairman: Do you go around the
schools?
Mr Spencer: We do.
Q343 Chairman: Do you positively
go out to recruit? Do you offer them work experience?
Mr Spencer: We do.
Q344 Chairman: You do, and that is
not working and you are saying it needs something more than that?
Mr Spencer: No, what happens is
that they will come along. It sounds like a good idea sometimes
and when they realise that it is necessary to go to work at three
o'clock in the morning because that is when the tide is, they
decide that is not really for them! It is understandable, perhaps.
Q345 Chairman: It is not quite so
attractive.
Mr Spencer: Yes, but I do not
know what Government can do particularly, other than increase
the general level of education and perhaps promote this industry
as not being a sunset industry. There is not much else that you
can do because it is not easy. Three o'clock in the morning on
a Monday morning is not a good time to go to work really.
Chairman: No, Mr Spencer, I imagine you
would have difficulty changing the tides!
Q346 Clive Efford: Can I ask, what
do you pay? I am sure it is the marketplace and if you pay enough
people will turn up and work.
Mr Spencer: Well, for starters,
for a young lad starting they only start on about £14,000,
and then the skipper on the inland side is earning about £50,000
a year these days.
Q347 Chairman: But you are still
not bringing them in?
Mr Spencer: No. Luckily, this
week I actually had a young lad who says he wants to be a marine
engineer and the school phoned up and said, "This guy wants
to do work experience." I couldn't believe it. It's fantastic.
The placement was there instantly. I didn't even have to ask him
questions, because it is so rare. He's the first guy who wants
to be a marine engineer ever!
Q348 Chairman: Well, that is a rather
sad state of affairs.
Mr Spencer: It is, unfortunately,
but it does not prevail in Holland, you see, this is the problem.
Because we have got an operation in Holland, we see lots of youngsters
actually wanting to be involved, wanting to learn the skills that
surround inland transport -
Q349 Chairman: I think you are suggesting
that we dig a few dykes and if the country is at risk from the
sea you think maybe we might do better -
Mr Spencer: We have forgotten
that we are an island, that is the problem. We have forgotten
that we are an island. Lots of ports are neglected and run down.
When the Dock Labour Scheme finished all the small ports fell
into decline, necessarily because suddenly the larger ports became
more attractive, and so we have forgotten that we are an island.
If you go to any port in the UK you will see many, many more European
ships than you will British ships. There is a variety of reasons
for that, but our industry has been neglected over the years.
Q350 Chairman: That is all very interesting
and very important and we have certainly taken note of that. Finally,
do you think the industry as a whole protects wharf sites itself?
I understand all the difficulties you were telling us about earlier
on. We understand this Committee, after all, looked very closely
at inland waterways and the problems there were on individual
sites, but does the industry itself make a concerted effort to
go out and acquire the sites and hold people off and say to the
equivalent of Canary Wharf, "Tough! This is actually something
we need"?
Mr Trimmer: I think in the past
there was a lot more readiness to sell wharves for other development
when it was perceived at the time they no longer needed them.
We had a wharf in Fulham, a safeguarded wharf, that was sold by
Blue Circle to, as far as we are aware, fight off the bid from
Lafarge to take over. Blue Circle sold to a housing developer.
We were looking to reactivate the site, so we went to the market
to see what operators were interested and Lafarge, who by that
time had acquired Blue Circle, was one of the parties interested
in acquiring the wharf. So I think now there is a much greater
understanding that once these sites are lost that is the end of
it and that their immediate views on cargo handling may not be
strategically what they are looking at, and I think they are looking
now, certainly on the Thames, far more strategically.
Q351 Chairman: It is very interesting
that you mention that site. That was one which actually coloured
my childhood and I can tell you that it was not what was regarded
by Fulham as the most popular site in the world!
Mr Garratt: I just want to say
that globalisation means there is more port traffic and this is
part of what is driving it, because companies are recognising
they need waterside locations in order to trade, import, store
and warehouse, and so forth. So in that respect water transport,
waterways and coastal shipping go hand in hand with the port discussion
you were having in the previous session.
Q352 Chairman: I think, gentlemen,
what is interesting to this Committee is that we have always supported
the work that you do. We are very concerned about it and we think
it has enormous power to influence not only the environment but
also the industrial and political development of the waterways
industry, but I do wonder—and forgive me, this may sound
somewhat unkind—how much effort the industry itself puts
into making its case?
Mr Spencer: From my point of view,
I have got to say that we have developed a business with inland
waterways transport which really did not exist for us in 2000.
So from our point of view I think we do pretty well as much as
we can do, and to be honest we have persuaded the likes of Capespan,
CEMEX and Hanson to get on board and give it a go, so I think
some of us give it a good go.
Mr Garratt: I will take that as
a hint that Sea and Water should do better!
Mr Salem: I would certainly echo
that we think it is very important for the industry to put up
a united front. It is a very small industry from the total perspective
and we will be supporting Sea and Water and others in doing that
in the next few years.
Chairman: I think this Committee will
continue to take your interests seriously and I hope that our
completed report will at least say some things you want to hear.
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