Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460-476)
MR TIM
INGLETON, COUNCILLOR
PAUL WATKINS
AND MR
DAVID SHEPPARD
27 FEBRUARY 2008
Q460 Mr Leech: Are they appropriate
in all areas?
Mr Sheppard: I find that difficult
to answer. I think you need to look at the history of the Freight
Quality Partnerships. Initially they were set up a few years ago
by an initiative by the Freight Transport Association and obviously
TfL has then enhanced that within London, and since then you are
seeing them crop up in places where I suppose it is appropriate,
where there are issues, and I think there is a big part for them
to play.
Q461 Mr Leech: So in some areas you
do not think it is appropriate?
Mr Sheppard: I suppose if you
look at some of the smaller local authorities they may be totally
irrelevant.
Q462 Mr Leech: Do you think the role
of local authorities would change if Freight Quality Partnerships
were to be implemented more widely?
Mr Sheppard: I think so. One of
the things I have noticed since we have had the Freight Quality
Partnerships is that local authorities are actually beginning
to get what they call a freight unit, in the same way that TfL
has now got a freight unit. This is something they never had and
I believe that Camden is a particular one where they now have
a specialist who deals with freight issues within the borough.
Prior to the FQPs, that did not exist, which is where I based
my opening statement from.
Mr Ingleton: Yes, I think there
is a lot of value and a lot of mileage in developing those initiatives
where there are particular problems. As I say, from our experience
at Dover we have had a couple of issues where we have engaged
with the industry and the various authorities and it has proved
very effective.
Q463 Chairman: I want to allow you
to escape quite quickly, so what about Transport for London's
Freight Operators Recognition Scheme? Could it be reproduced more
widely?
Mr Sheppard: As a founder member
of the full scheme, I am a bit disappointed in the progress which
has been made with it. I think it suffers from perhaps a bit of
leadership and from being strangled by just being in London. I
see that as being the major issue.
Q464 Chairman: Yes. Let me ask you
about another London scheme, the Lorry Control Scheme? Does it
reduce the disturbance through unnecessary lorry movements in
London?
Mr Sheppard: I would probably
say no. It certainly increases CO2 emissions because you have
got vehicles driving all around the perimeter of the M25 to get
into certain areas within London, which cannot be a good use of
resources.
Q465 Chairman: Because of the restrictions
of the Lorry Control Scheme, you are saying?
Mr Sheppard: The Lorry Control
Scheme.
Q466 Chairman: So instead of doing
the normal planning, they would plan their journey on the basis
of an outside constraint? Is that the argument you are putting
to me?
Mr Sheppard: Yes. If you are going
from, let us say Kent, into Kensington you could not drive straight
in, you would have to go all the way around the M25 and then come
in from the west, because you have to access London from the shortest
point from the M25. So to do what may be a 50 mile journey, you
could end up doing 80 or 90 miles.
Q467 Chairman: So you do not think
it is a particularly good idea and it is not particularly useful?
Mr Sheppard: I think it has out-lived
its days.
Q468 Chairman: What about the Freight
Best Practice, which I did ask you about? Is it good value for
money?
Mr Sheppard: I think it has some
jolly good uses, yes. Not all of it, but a lot of it you can actually
take and use and make some big improvements.
Q469 Chairman: So what should the
Government do to encourage the freight industry to improve its
efficiency?
Mr Sheppard: You could argue incentives.
Perhaps not incentives, but perhaps we come back to the first
session and perhaps less of a stick in taking taxes from us.
Q470 Mr Martlew: Could I ask you
about the design of vehicles? I was recently talking to a haulier
who was saying that weight is not the problem very often and you
could actually design the vehicles to be longer, still moving
in the same turning circle, and that would save a lot of journeys.
Is there any sense in that, because it is not the weight?
Mr Sheppard: It is not the weight,
but certainly with retailers access is a major problem, so we
have got to be careful on length. Most of our trailers and the
bigger vehicles are not maximum length now, but we do run double-deck
trailers. We actually designed the double-deck trailer back in
1984. We were the first to actually pioneer it, and we have doubled
capacity and we now use them throughout the whole of the country,
so it is important. There is a lot of resentment to them because
the general public think that this massive great vehicle is damaging
the roads, but I put it to a seminar in Cambridge, where they
asked could we not go in with smaller vehicles to protect their
roads, and I actually pointed out that the axle weights of their
local buses actually exceeded the weights of our maximum vehicles.
It is a misunderstanding.
Q471 Chairman: The only difficulty
about that is how should we balance the needs of the freight operator
in relation to other road users?
Mr Sheppard: It is a very good
question and it comes back down to -
Q472 Chairman: I know the questions,
Mr Sheppard, but I like the odd answer!
Mr Sheppard: The answer is, the
only way you are actually going to do it is by discussing and
making people understand each other's issues and how you actually
try and get some consensus on how you move it forward.
Q473 Chairman: Because you are saying
in effect the general public do not accept the argument that you
were putting forward? Forgive me, but even the most informed persons
die of a little bit of argument about whether they understand
axle weights and distribution of weight upon a road surface. It
is not something which is, at least at any of the dinner parties
that I go to, an obvious source of conversation?
Mr Sheppard: No.
Q474 Chairman: So how do you get
over then the arguments that the freight industry's interests
have to be balanced against other road users, because you must
be asked this quite often?
Mr Sheppard: All the time. The
general public's perception of a lorry or a truck is that they
don't want them on the road. They are a no-no. They get stuck
behind them. The only time they want them is when they want a
delivery made or they want to go into the store and find the goods
on the shop floor, and it is a big issue getting them to understand
that.
Q475 Chairman: Did we say that we
would like to know the effects of requiring local authorities
to set up Freight Quality Partnerships as part of their local
transport plans?
Mr Sheppard: Yes.
Q476 Chairman: Do you think that
would be appropriate everywhere?
Mr Sheppard: Perhaps not everywhere,
but I would think in most places where there are road issues,
congestion and heavy freight traffic.
Chairman: Gentlemen, you have been very
helpful. I must say to Dover, when you suggest that your numbers
of HGVs are going to go up in a way which will make it, it seems
to me, impossible to reside anywhere in Kent, let alone in Dover,
I find that quite a horrifying idea, but thank you very much for
coming and good luck with the Trans-Manche, as they say.
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