Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MRS ELAINE
HOLT, MR
MARTIN DEAN,
MR LES
WARNEFORD AND
MR IAN
DOBBS
14 NOVEMBER 2007
Q80 Chairman: Can you give me off-the-cuff—and
I am not going to hold you to it—two or three things you
think your company does.
Mrs Holt: If we take First Capital
Connect we are doing a lot with cycling. It is a particular issue
for us because we serve Cambridge and Brighton and places like
that, so we have invested quite a lot in cycle facilities, parking,
security, and that kind of thing to promote different travel to
stations because car parking is an issue at stations.
Q81 Chairman: I understand that but
before we get on to that, how do I get my bicycle on a train in
Cambridge or to Cambridge? Do I have to book specifically by going
to the station; can I use the Internet; how do I get my cycle
on?
Mrs Holt: If you are travelling
from Cambridge you can leave your bike at the station. There are
plenty of facilities there. Peak trains are very, very crowded
so we do not allow bikes on the train in the peak but off peak
you can travel with your bike. You are not required on our services
to book in advance, but the point was made earlier about booking
with bicycles not being available on the Internet, and that is
something we should all look at.
Q82 Mrs Ellman: What is the industry
doing to make sure that passengers get accurate information on
the best deals at all times?
Mr Dobbs: I did not quite catch
the question.
Q83 Mrs Ellman: What are you all
doing to improve the situation for passengers to make sure they
get the cheapest prices and best deals at all times?
Mr Dobbs: I think the previous
witnesses actually summarised very well some of the general schemes
that are going on and the actual scale of the problem as well.
One of the areas where I think we are making some major strides
is in making better the customer-friendly nature of the ticket
vending machines that we have got. That is one area where I think
the first generation were not particularly friendly in that regard.
Q84 Chairman: Vending machines?
Mr Dobbs: Yes, the ticket vending
machines, and really with experience and feedback from our customers
we are now looking at ways with software where we can make those
far more interactive and simpler to use as well. We are actually
seeing quite a distinct movement to ticket vending machines. They
are becoming increasingly popular and I think that is something
we see in other industries as well. In some of our stations for
instance we are getting up to 70% of ticket sales through the
ticket vending machines. Waterloo is nearly 50% now, which is
quite remarkable.
Q85 Mrs Ellman: Does anyone else
have anything to add to that?
Mr Warneford: I think the question,
Chairman, probably does not much apply to the buses where we have
got very simple fare structures and scales that are posted on
the vehicle. I am not conscious that there is a problem of awareness
or information about them.
Mr Dobbs: Could I possibly comment
on your earlier question about the appropriateness of the Government's
approach on integrated ticketing. I think one of the things that
we would very much applaud is the leadership the Government has
taken with regard to defining ITSO as the common platform across
all operators. It is an area where it is very difficult to develop
smartcard technology but it is certainly one that has enormous
potential. I know between the rail and the bus divisions in our
company we are looking very much at smartcards as the future.
We have had PlusBus and other schemes in the past but I think
we have been scratching the surface. We have to produce a product
that customers, the people out there in the street, are very comfortable
with, something that is very easy to use. I think a common smartcard
platform is the way to go.
Q86 Mrs Ellman: Is the PlusBus scheme
undermined by frequent changes to bus timetables?
Mr Dobbs: My personal experience
is that is not necessarily the case. I think first of all although
it is promoted it is not widely known about. That is number one.
I think secondly in a lot of the stations we serve, certainly
in the south east of England, that the preferred mode of travel
to the station is the car anyway. People have already got a car
at home and what we have been trying to do is encourage them to
leave it at the station and go forward from there, so we have
been increasing car parking spaces. Maybe bus has been a little
bit further down the priority in the Home Counties, but I think
it is an area we have to look at in the future, and again we have
to make it visible.
Q87 Mrs Ellman: Are there any plans
to improve the PlusBus scheme?
Mrs Holt: Yes there are. More
stations are being added all the time and I think there is a lot
of work going on to make sure that bus timetables and train timetables
are linked.
Q88 Chairman: There is an original
idea!
Mrs Holt: Yes, startling, is it
not! So I think we are seeing that. We have been running the franchise
for 18 months and we have seen a 58% growth year-on-year on PlusBus
sales because we are working a lot more closely with other bus
companies, so I think where there is a will there is a way, and
I think it is important that train companies do build relationships.
It does work when it is there and advertised in the station. I
think advertising and better liaison on timetables is something
that is taking place and something that will improve.
Q89 Mrs Ellman: Is fare dodging a
problem?
Mrs Holt: The previous witnesses
talked a lot about the level of ticketless travel. I think we
should remember that 95% of our customers do pay for their tickets.
In First Capital Connect's case it is about 5% of people that
are fraudulent so, yes, it is a problem and we are making big
investments into gate lines, additional staff, and a variety of
other measures. The majority of people are honest and they pay
their fare and it is the small percentage that we have to deal
with.
Q90 Mrs Ellman: Do you need any new
powers to make fare dodging more difficult?
Mrs Holt: No, we do not believe
we do on the rail side.
Mr Dean: On the bus side outside
London there is not the ability to levy a penalty fare. I think
that is something that we would welcome the enabling power to
do.
Mr Dobbs: I think from our side
I would agree with Mrs Holt that the issue is being far more professionally
managed now than it was a few years ago. I think there has been
a major tightening up on revenue protection. It is still a problem,
of course it is a problem, and while there are people there not
paying and can be seen by others not to pay, it is a major problem.
It is, in the context of the overall picture, a very small minority
of people and the actual number of people within that 5% that
was quoted there, whatever the number is, the hard core of people
who are deliberately dodging is very, very small.
Q91 Mr Scott: The industry has been
reluctant to make major investment in smartcards. Is the government
putting the long term structure and incentives in place to make
the business case more attractive?
Mr Dean: The principle of ITSO
is a good one because obviously if you create a common platform
what it does mean is that you have the same standards and you
can buy products en masse which has to be a good thing.
Mr Dobbs: Within the rail industry,
the government—I think as has already been mentioned—is
going through a process of specifying smartcard technology to
be implemented on all new rail franchises to either a large or
to a small extent, depending on which franchises they are. We
were certainly with South West Trains the first company to go
through the process where we had to introduce a smartcard scheme
across the entire train operating company. That is a huge challenge
but I think it is moving in the right direction. We think there
is a positive business case for it in our part of the home counties,
probably because of the sheer volumes of people involved and it
will allow us far more flexible ticketing in the future as well,
particularly with the commuting market. In other parts of the
country the business case is far weaker. Clearly in rural areas,
where the volumes of people are much lower and the numbers of
footfalls through each of the stations are very light in some
cases, the business case is very, very difficult to prove.
Q92 Mr Scott: Oyster is to be extended
to all rail stations in London by 2008. Do you think that is sensible,
investing further in Oyster when it is not going to be compatible
with ITSO? What is your view on this?
Mr Dobbs: We are very happy to
embrace Oyster technology on mainland rail as long as we obviously
get the commercial arrangements around it robust. I think it is
sensible because extending Oyster across the mainland rail system
gives the consumer more choice.
Q93 Chairman: I think we have to
be clear about this because what Mr Scott was asking is, since
there is a gap between the two systems, are you assuming that
you will be able to move or are you saying no, you drop the ITSO
standards and you go for the Oyster standards? I think there is
a specific gap and a specific disagreement, is there not?
Mr Dobbs: No, I do not believe
there is a gap. We are cooperating with Transport for London to
put Oyster pay as you go onto all of our stations. We have had
some very fruitful discussions with them which we hope will lead
to a resolution of that in the next few weeks. In the meantime,
we are both within London and outside of London implementing the
ITSO smartcard as well so we are putting two systems in. I do
not believe that is a problem.
Q94 Chairman: Why?
Mr Dobbs: As has already been
mentioned, they are going to be interoperable. As far as the customer
is concerned, they will be able to use ITSO smartcard products
in London that have Transport for London fares on them and of
course they will be able to use Oyster cards on mainland rail
stations with the Greater London area as well.
Q95 Mr Scott: You do not think it
would be better just to go with one system and, as Oyster obviously
is around at the moment, to use that and not ITSO?
Mr Dobbs: The Mayor has decided
that Oyster is the right thing for London, bearing in mind that
it came along earlier than ITSO as well, so it would have been
silly waiting for ITSO. As the system evolves in the future and
the technology evolves, I think the systems will technically probably
come close together. As far as the passenger is concerned, it
will not make a lot of difference. You will have a card that you
touch on a reader which is either valid or not valid, just the
same as a normal ticket.
Q96 Mr Hollobone: Stagecoach basically
runs the public transport system in Kettering because you are
in charge of most of the buses and now the trains. What plans
do you have for somebody for example in Burton Latimer in the
Kettering constituency to buy an integrated ticket to take him
from Burton Latimer to the station and then to London?
Mr Warneford: Kettering is one
of the Plusbus stations so you can buy a rail ticket which has
the bus add-on. If you are asking will you be able to buy the
rail ticket on the bus, that technically is a much huger problem
and that will be the same problem anywhere in the country, to
put the whole rail ticketing system onto the bus driver's machine.
Mr Dobbs: Our contracted obligation
is to install an ITSO smartcard system at Kettering Station along
with the other mainline stations on that line and also at selected
stations in the East Midlands commuter area, let us call it, around
Derby and Nottingham. Our key priority is to get that technology
in place first. Once we get things rolling, we will then be looking
at how we can spread out greater integration but at the moment,
as I think Mr Warneford has said, we have the Plusbus product
and we will look to develop that further and see whether it can
be integrated with smartcard but I think that is some years away.
Our first priority is to get the rail product working properly.
When we have done that, then we will look at developing it.
Q97 Mr Hollobone: We will come back
to the rail product, with your permission Madam Chairman, in a
minute. Pensioners in Kettering are looking forward to their free
concessionary bus travel from next April. The local borough council
is looking to extend that free concession into the peak period
which the borough council will subsidise. Will your smartcard
technology be able to cope with that?
Mr Warneford: Do you mean purely
on the bus?
Q98 Mr Hollobone: Yes.
Mr Warneford: The situation with
the national bus concession scheme next April has a problem and
you have crystallised it in your own question. Although there
will be one national smartcard scheme from the government, from
the Department for Transport for all the elderly and the disabled,
with a standard, core time of day at which it can be used, each
district can then apply different times of day to it. I just cannot
understand how the bus drivers are going to know what is going
to be valid from one area to another. Purely within your own area,
within Kettering, our drivers will recognise a Kettering pass
will be available in the morning peak period. That will not be
a problem but they might not know what the rules are for Northampton
or for Corby or for South Northamptonshire. I can see a real problem
there.
Q99 Mr Hollobone: With regard to
the rail service in Kettering, I am very glad that you are here,
Mr Dobbs, because there is huge concern in Kettering at the moment
that ticket prices are going to be going up quite sharply under
your new franchise arrangement. You are proposing to cut the number
of trains from London to Kettering by a fifth, the number of evening
peak trains from London to Kettering by a third and halve the
number of trains from Kettering going northwards throughout the
day, effectively downgrading Kettering from an intercity station
to an outer suburban station. Could I invite you, Mr Dobbs, to
visit with me Kettering railway station in this, its 150th year,
so that you can talk with local passengers about the link between
ticketing and the extra prices that local people are going to
have to pay with a severely downgraded service?
Mr Dobbs: Yes.
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