Examination of Witnesses (Question 480-499)
MR TOM
HARRIS MP AND
MR BOB
LINNARD
12 DECEMBER 2007
Q480 Chairman: Do you have a workable
estimate of the increase in bus patronage because of the English
National Concessionary Travel Scheme?
Mr Harris: Not to hand.
Mr Linnard: I do not think we
have. What we do know is what has happened since 2006 when the
concession was extended from half price to free and there there
has been a substantial increase in patronage, particularly outside
the metropolitan areas.
Q481 Graham Stringer: Are you going
to make any attempt to keep the statistics that the department
keeps in such a way that you can compare 2009 statistics with
2003 statistics? We are going to be in a difficulty in looking
at what happens to bus patronage when we get to 2010 or 2009 because
we will have had three different systems over that period of time.
Has the department looked at whether it can disaggregate the figures
so that they can be compared?
Mr Linnard: It is quite difficult
to do.
Q482 Graham Stringer: It may well
be but will you try?
Mr Linnard: What we can look at
is what has happened to bus patronage in areas where there was
already free travel, some of the PTEs for example, compared to
what has happened to bus patronage when free travel was introduced.
Looking at the difference between those gives you some idea of
the underlying trend in bus patronage compared to what is happening
as a consequence of more generous concessionary travel being introduced.
Q483 Graham Stringer: It is an important
point because it is a matter of both political debate and of government
policy to increase patronage. We need to understand what is happening,
so would you give a commitment to at least look at preparing statistics
so that we can make those comparisons?
Mr Harris: Absolutely. I see no
benefit in the Government trying to make those kinds of statistics
less available or less transparent.
Q484 Clive Efford: Are you stipulating
on the smartcard technology for the concessionary fare that it
should identify where the card was issued from?
Mr Harris: I think all the cards
do actually contain a mark about which authority issued them.
Q485 Clive Efford: In the long term,
some local authorities you will be aware of are concerned about
reciprocity, who is going to be paying for the journey undertaken,
so if somebody comes to a tourist area, uses their concessionary
fare card, goes back home, that local authority gets billed for
that journey. If that could be recharged back to the local authority
where the card was issued then some of those fears might not come
about. Is there any plan in the long term to have the smartcard
technology able to identify where the card was issued no matter
where it was used so that recharge can be made?
Mr Harris: Mr Linnard may wish
to come in on this after I have spoken. I am not aware of any
plans to change the funding regime but, as I said earlier on,
unless you have a working smartcard system you are never going
to be able to actually trace and calculate what those passengers'
journeys are and where people are travelling. I think the information
we are going to get from the use of the smartcard system will
actually make the funding regime more robust because we will actually
now who is using it and what the numbers are, but I do not know
whether that is part of the act.
Mr Linnard: The way it will work
is that the local authority in which the journey takes place or
starts has to reimburse the bus operator; that is the basis principle
of it. To get a completely different system where the home local
authority system pays for any journey regardless of where in the
country it was made you would need readers in all the buses which
do not exist at the moment. You would need a completely different
level of technology.
Q486 Clive Efford: If that is the
way you want to end up you should be planning for it now.
Mr Linnard: It is not necessarily
where we need to end up. As long as we have got—and we think
we have—a fair system for distributing funding to the local
authorities that are going to meet the most costs.
Q487 Clive Efford: Can we ever have
a fully operational smartcard or concessionary fare scheme whilst
we have a deregulated market out of London or a fragmented market
on the rail system?
Mr Harris: Yes, I think you can.
Once you have that system there may be avenues for improving the
whole scheme by changing that regulation, but I think it is certainly
possible to have an effective smartcard system that works throughout
the country that people understand and which give people the best
deal for their particular journey. It happens in Scotland although
the readers have not yet been introduced on the buses there, but
there is a smartcard system, there is a concessionary bus system
which is nationwide. The buses are not any more regulated there
than they are here.
Q488 Clive Efford: Do you think we
will ever get to a position where either the train operating companies
or the bus operators will not act in their own interests against
the interests of through ticketing scheme, whether it is smartcard
or any other form?
Mr Harris: I think there is a
very good commercial argument to say that the bus operators should
embrace this kind of technology. I do not think this is a threat
to bus operators' revenues; quite the opposite. I think there
is a lot to be gained by bus operators in introducing this kind
of technology. I do not accept the argument that bus operators
will not want to have some kind of integrated smartcard system.
Q489 Chairman: I take it you do not
know any bus operators.
Mr Harris: I have met a few of
them.
Q490 Chairman: Are you satisfied
that people can appeal satisfactorily against penalty fares?
Mr Harris: It is an independent
appeals process.
Q491 Chairman: Forgive me, Minister,
but it is not exactly, is it? The railway companies themselves
actually appoint whoever is dealing with the penalty fare system
and it is not very clear how they operate or what their criteria
are.
Mr Harris: The criteria I think
are quite clear. Penalty fare systems have to be approved by the
secretary of state for transport.
Q492 Chairman: There is not an independent
appeals panel, is there?
Mr Harris: It is certainly arm's
length from the company where the dispute has taken place and
anyone not satisfied with that can appeal.
Q493 Chairman: That is not total
independence, is it? If someone was criticising you and I was
the one who was sitting there, of course I would have your best
interests at heart.
Mr Harris: It is certainly industry
run but I have to tell you that I am not aware of any major serious
causes for concern in terms of its effectiveness.
Q494 Mrs Ellman: If you do not know
what the extent of the increased patronage will be from the National
Concessionary Fare Scheme, how do you know it is going to produce
value for money? What are its benefits actually going to be?
Mr Harris: I think the benefits
are in terms of social inclusion, in terms of extra mobility and
extra opportunity for people who qualify for the concessionary
card. I accept that those are benefits that cannot be quantified;
there is no cost benefit ratio. What we are trying to achieve
is something you probably cannot measure in terms of giving freedom
to people who might previously have felt that they cannot afford
that level of freedom.
Q495 Mrs Ellman: The Commission for
Integrated Transport suggested that better value would be gained
from extending low fares for young people and for people on low
incomes. Did you ever consider that as an option?
Mr Harris: The act is flexible
enough so that that could be an add-on to the system at some point
in the future. We have made a deliberate policy decision that
older people and disabled people are, for the moment, a priority.
However, for a number of years we have allowed local authorities
to have their own add-ons or increments. If they want to add something
on to the base scheme, whether it is young people, whether it
is the carers of disabled people, then that is something that
the local authorities have the opportunity to add onto the scheme.
Q496 Mrs Ellman: Would there be any
financial support for that?
Mr Harris: No, that would be at
the expense of the local authority.
Q497 Mrs Ellman: Does the Government
have a view on that?
Mr Harris: Their view is that
local authorities should be able to have the freedom to decide
how to spend their own income. I do not think it would be right
for us, having set out the base scheme, to say that if you want
to have any increments at all we will meet the costs of that.
I think that would defeat the purpose.
Q498 Chairman: One of the ways in
which your smartcard systems would work would of course be making
the whole system a closed system. That is why London Underground
is so efficient because it is easier to organise. Do you have
any idea of the implications for passengers of making stations
which at the present time are open stations closed stations?
Mr Harris: We are never going
to have a railway system in this country that is completely closed.
Q499 Chairman: No, but with respect
Minister, many stations will be gated and this is going to present
a hazard for anyone with a disability or young children or large
bags or bicycles.
Mr Harris: I do not think that
will be the case. The Government will expect the station operators
at any station where there are gates to have staff available to
make sure that disabled people, people with prams, people with
bikes are able to access stations. It is everyone's right to access
those stations. At Waterloo, for example, there has been some
criticism along exactly the lines you have just expressed, and
that gating simply will not happen if it results in significant
numbers—or anyone—being excluded physically from Waterloo
Station.
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