Examination of Witnesses (Questins 320-339)
ANGELA EAGLE
MP
6 FEBRUARY 2008
Q320 Mr Todd: Let me just test a
hypothesis which is that the Ordnance Survey are being extremely
protective of their intellectual property and may be extremely
protective of how their part of compiling any address register
used by ONS is actually developed and then used subsequently.
If this is some one off exercise, perhaps the Ordnance Survey
may say that that is for them but obviously if there is an ongoing
use for the Ordnance Survey data as part of its component one
can imagine they may have an interest in this matter. Is someone
going to be ensuring that that interest is pursued constructively?
Angela Eagle: I certainly hope
so. I would say that the 2009 rehearsal or pilot which will take
account of hard to enumerate areas as well as easy to enumerate
areas might give us some more information about that and lead
us into ensuring that we take account of any difficulties that
the Ordnance Survey or any other owners of the data that is used
for post out might present us with. Practical issues, that is.
Q321 Mr Todd: Based on what we have
seen today with some of the difficulties you have conceded, surely
some clear direction in this area should be applied now rather
than waiting for us to encounter the problem at some stage later
on?
Angela Eagle: I do not disagree
that it is an issue that we need to ensure is properly taken account
of in the census. If ONS had come to me and said they were worried
about any of this, I would have taken appropriate action. I have
to say they have not to date.
Q322 Nick Ainger: The European Union
last spring conducted a survey in all 27 member countries on the
confidence that the public had in official statistics. We came
27th out of 27. What can the government and ONS do to improve
our league table position and public confidence in official statistics?
Angela Eagle: I hope that the
move to independence will certainly assist. I think it is obviously
not helpful when you come 27th out of 27. I do not think it is
a reasonable reflection on the standard and quality of the work
that ONS do, as it happens. I note that there is a draft report
on the peer review of the UK and how it has implemented the European
statistics code of practice just published, which is extremely
complimentary about the standards that ONS reach. I think there
is a perception issue and then there is the practical reality
which is actually that ONS is a pretty good national statistic
office that does a great deal of work to an extremely high standard.
I hope the move to independence and the changes that Parliament
approved in the Statistics Act which comes into force in April
will assist us in changing what I think is an unfair perception.
Q323 Nick Ainger: Coming back to
Mr Viggers's questions and the problem that Slough and many other
local authorities have where you have local government questioning
the official statistics as well, do you recognise the extent of
the problem in terms of the actual statistics which are being
questioned and who are questioning them?
Angela Eagle: Yes. That is why
we have put in train the very important work stream on improving
migration statistics particularly and why it is now also going
to be led by a ministerial group, as John Healey announced during
the local government settlements debate a couple of days ago.
At the same timewe had many discussions about this in the
passage of the Statistics Act itselfstatistics are not
utterly perfect. They cannot tell us in a completely timely way,
with absolute 100% certainty, absolutely everything we want to
know. Surveys can be extremely accurate and still not 100%. I
think there has to be an understanding on both sides that statistics
have their limitations as well as their inaccuracies. I would
like to see there being a more informed debate about how accurate
and timely statistics can be, even in an almost perfect world.
They can assist us but they cannot always give us 100% of the
information that we need in a timely fashion. The methodologies
have their limits or their biases which the statisticians are
trained to try to deal with and explain to us. We should understand
that perhaps a bit more than we do.
Q324 Nick Ainger: Developing that
theme, Camden Council told us that their experience of the 2007
Census Test was that publicity was a very important factor in
that; and that they felt, whatever publicity campaign starts in
the lead up to the 2011 Census, the first thing that should be
done is a clear explanation of why the census is important, why
statistics are important to ordinary people, not just to local
government or whoever. Would you accept that that is the first
thing that really has to be done, bearing in mind this serious
problem that we have in terms of people's confidence in statistics
and their experience of these significant losses of data and obviously
their reluctance now to participate in providing personal statistics?
Angela Eagle: I think that is
really important. I hope that the Statistics Board and the independence
of that will help us deal with that. The whole process of having
the census, the engagement that we have with stakeholder groups
at the beginning, the way that the design works, the way that
that changes as a result of the engagement, the pilot studies
we have, the fact that parliamentarians then get a chance after
the White Paper, which is also an important part of having this
debate, is published in the summer, onto the pilots and then the
real thing when it happens in 2011 are important processes, during
which we can try to do exactly what you have suggested, which
is to have a debate about why it is important to fill in the census
forms accurately and how important it is that the data that is
derived from those is accurate. If we do not have accuracy, we
have misallocation of resources and policy development which is
informed by statistics that are wrong. We do need to have a publicity
campaign that speaks to ordinary people as well as those who are
usual users of statistics and seriously, I hope, communicate how
important this process is in 2011.
Q325 Nick Ainger: I do not know what
discussions you have had in terms of that with ONS and perhaps
when it is formed the Statistics Board but clearly there needs
to be a serious publicity campaign, bearing in mind the background
of issues over privacy, over security of data and this general
distrust, if you like, of official statistics.
Angela Eagle: I agree. I think
we have enough time and the processes and the time line in place
to do a successful job of that.
Q326 Mr Dunne: I would like to turn
to some of the value for money aspects of conducting a census
which the Chairman touched on at the beginning. We were told last
week by Sir Michael Scholar that he regards the census as far
from being a value for money exercise if it does not provide effective
answers. Have you looked at the balance of the equation about
this issue of extending the number of pages of the census and
the cost of that against the overall effectiveness of the census?
Angela Eagle: Yes. I think it
is important to say, whatever the outcome of the trawl to see
if we can get enough money to have a fourth page, we will have
an effective census with three or four pages. It would be desirable,
in my view, if we could have a fourth page. However, it is also
important to remember that if questions are not included on the
census form we can still get a pretty good idea of the information
that we are after by using some of the larger, general surveys
which happen more regularly. The issue is not always between having
information by asking every single person in the country and adding
it up or having no information. It is the difference between having
survey information, very regular survey information or information
which is gathered from everybody every ten years. Yes, I think
it is important that we try to get a fourth page but at the same
time I do not think all is lost if we do not.
Q327 Mr Dunne: The ONS told us that
they had put in a bid for £25 million to provide the extra
page. Have you given them an answer on that? If so, what is it?
Angela Eagle: I wish I could tell
you, but the process by which we are attempting to gather the
money is not finished yet. I have three hats here. I am here as
a Treasury Minister trying to keep public expenditure and drifting
off CSR settlements down. I am here as the ONS Minister who does
want to see a fourth page. I am also trying to marshal the arguments
throughout Whitehall to see if we can find the money for a fourth
page. I will tell you in due course. You will find out whether
there is a fourth page. I am hopeful that we will be able to make
progress but that process is not completed yet.
Q328 Mr Dunne: I take that as quite
an encouraging signal. It is obviously an uncomfortable position
to be in as judge and jury on the situation.
Angela Eagle: It is an interesting
position. Treasury Ministers do not often go round Whitehall asking
people for more money.
Q329 Mr Dunne: Has the ONS done research
into the cost effectiveness of population registers as opposed
to a traditional census?
Angela Eagle: You would have to
ask them that. I have not seen any research that they have produced
on that.
Q330 Mr Dunne: When will the contract
to provide outsourced data collection of storage services for
the 2011 Census be awarded?
Angela Eagle: My understanding
is that the procurement process is ongoing and they expect it
to be completed in the ONS, they have told me, by May of this
year.
Q331 Mr Dunne: Can you confirm whether
Lockheed Martin is one of the bidders?
Angela Eagle: I can confirm that
they are one of the bidders.
Q332 Mr Dunne: If they were to succeed
in the bid, there has been some suggestion made that because they
are a US incorporated company the data on British citizens will
be passed to the US and therefore become subject to the US Patriot
Act, which may have some implications for people's willingness
to complete the census form. What legal advice have you received
about that?
Angela Eagle: We have received
legal advice that there is no risk that that would happen. Some
of the arrangements that would be made would ensure that the data
was owned and kept in the UK. There has been no instance of the
US Patriot Act being used to subpoena or deal with companies that
are not US based. The company that would do the contract under
Lockheed Martin's suggestions would not be US based. We are pretty
confident that there would be robust defences against any such
thing happening. You also have to remember that under the 1920
Census Act by which we do these things in the first place there
is absolute confidentiality when it comes to these issues. The
ONS has always been extremely robust on that and we would certainly
be the same. If there was such an issue, then it would affect
the procurement.
Q333 Mr Dunne: In light of the recent
track record on data management and retention in government agencies,
can you recognise the potential public concern about this issue
if in particular Lockheed Martin were to win the contract?
Angela Eagle: I can but I think
it is misplaced in this instance.
Q334 Mr Dunne: What will you be doing
to reassure the public?
Angela Eagle: I would not expect
there to be a procurement process where there was a risk of that
kind. I am reluctant to talk too much, in the middle of a procurement
process where there are two bidders, about one in public but I
can reassure you that we are on top of these issues and that the
public would have no practical cause to worry. If they did have,
then the procurement would not proceed if there was such a risk.
Q335 Mr Dunne: Could you give the
public and us today reassurance that there would be some bar placed
in the contract on any of this data being taken out of the UK,
whether electronically or by means of a CD or the post?
Angela Eagle: I would like to
write to you about that but I emphasise once more the absolute
confidentiality requirements that have always applied to the census,
that have been kept for 200 years without too much of a problem.
I think there were a couple of bin bags on one occasion but it
is a pretty robust record and we are extremely anxious from the
Minister on down to ensure that that remains the case.[1]
Q336 Mr Brady: Briefly, picking up on
one of Mr Dunne's questions, regarding Lockheed Martin, if there
were a prospect of the contract being awarded there, would it
be the government's policy not just to take legal advice but also
to seek assurances from the United States Government?
Angela Eagle: It is absolutely
clear that no contract would be let if there were risks of that
kind.
Q337 Mr Brady: Would assurances be
sought from the United States Government?
Angela Eagle: I can certainly
tell you that we would ensure that the requirement for absolute
confidentiality under the 1920 Census Act was fulfilled in full.
Q338 Ms Keeble: I wanted to ask a
bit about the mid-year population estimates. Karen Dunnell told
us that there had recently been indicators of churn in communities
which highlights that in some local authorities more than a quarter
of their populations are changing each year. For some local authorities
that might be their own estimation of what is happening, but to
have some solid figures is obviously very important and helpful.
Is your Department using these indicators?
Angela Eagle: The recommendations
of the interdepartmental task force on migration statistics which
are attempting to reform and make more sophisticated the way that
we collect this information are looking at precisely those things.
They are not only looking at how to change the way the port survey
is done; it is looking at how to survey people living in communal
establishments, to ask questions about not only their usual place
of address but perhaps if they have second addresses, to try to
establish outflows and inflows from one region to another. It
is continuing to look at what can be done to try to capture what
Karen Dunnell called the churn.
Q339 Ms Keeble: How are they proposing
to use it? Have they a timescale for it?
Angela Eagle: Some of the task
force recommendations are being put into effect now and will help
to inform subsequent estimates. Clearly, obviously births and
deaths which are the other two things that are taken account of
in the mid-population estimates, are fairly easy to get a handle
on. Migration is the main thing, so that is why they are focusing
so much on how they can try to capture what you call the churn,
but movements once people are in and living in the community.
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