Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-199)
MR DAVE
RAMSDEN, MR
MIKE WILLIAMS,
MR EDWARD
TROUP, MS
SARAH MULLEN,
MR CHRIS
MARTIN AND
MR SIMON
GALLAGHER
18 MARCH 2008
Q180 Mr Mudie: Tell me how many children
that is.
Mr Williams: We would have missed
by some tens of thousands on that.
Q181 Mr Mudie: It is more than tens
of thousands. 23% on 850,000 children sounds more than tens of
thousands.
Mr Williams: What I was saying,
Mr Mudie, is that we achieved approximately 23%, not that it was
23% of 800,000.
Q182 Mr Mudie: Can you just give
me a figure? You must have a figure for 2004-05, the first target.
We were going to take 850,000 children out of poverty. What number
do we officially acknowledge we took out of poverty by that review?
Mr Williams: This was a Spending
Review 2002 target. On that child poverty fell 23% before housing
costs and 17% after housing costs.
Q183 Mr Mudie: Mr Williams, just
give me a figure. Translate that. It must be in front of you and
you saw the testimony yesterday, so you knew I was going to ask
it. What was the figure?
Mr Williams: The 23% figure would
be just over 700,000 and the 17% figure—
Q184 Mr Mudie: I am sorry, Mr Williams.
Give me that figure.
Mr Williams: The 23% figure, which
is the figure before housing costs, would be just over 700,000.
Q185 Mr Mudie: So why in the Budget
Book 2008 are we referring to having taken out 600,000, four years
later? That is why I am trying to put on the record figures we
can judge performance against.
Mr Williams: The difficulty in
this whole area, Mr Mudie, is with the way the numbers work. We
are not looking at a static thing and that is where the difficulties
arise. What we are looking at is a projection against figures,
if I could explain that. The best data that we currently have
are data from 2005-06, so what we are having to do is project
figures and the projection depends on a range of factors. First,
and a very important factor, is parental employment rate, especially
the rate of employment for lone parents.
Q186 Mr Mudie: Mr Williams, do me
a favour. If you can send the Committee a report with a detailed
explanation that would be useful, but are we still putting the
figure for the 2010-11 halfway target at 1.7 million?
Mr Williams: Yes.
Q187 Mr Mudie: What do you think
we are at now?
Mr Williams: Taking into account
the measures announced in the Budget we feel that now we are just
over 1.1 million.
Q188 Mr Mudie: And how much do you
think it will cost to get to 1.7 million?
Mr Williams: That is really quite
difficult to assess. It depends on, for example,—
Q189 Mr Mudie: Robert Chote said
2.8 million yesterday.
Mr Williams: That is his figure,
but I think it depends, crucially, on the assumptions you make
on things like earnings growth in the area which gives you the
poverty definition, which is 60% of the median.
Q190 Mr Mudie: What is in the Comprehensive
Spending Review on this item? It finishes at 2010-11.
Mr Williams: The Comprehensive
Spending Review committed to the 2010 target of halving child
poverty.
Q191 Mr Mudie: I am just asking what
financial figures are in there to indicate that the Government
is going to put the money in to meet the target.
Mr Williams: In the PBR further
money was put into this.
Chairman: We will maybe get a letter
from you, if possible before tomorrow when the Chancellor comes,
and we know there is a moving target, but what we can gather against
the 700,000 to get out of poverty by 2010. The latest measures
have roughly tackled about 200,000, so there are about half a
million left over two Budgets, so if you could explain that in
simple terms it would help. [1]
Q192 Mr Mudie: It really depends because
that is why I am anxious to get you to put figures on the table.
If it is 1.7 million and you are at 1.1 million you are 600,000
short, not 450,000, so that is why we would welcome a figure.
The Saving Gateway—who is dealing with this?
Mr Williams: That is me as well.
Q193 Mr Mudie: Are you ready?
Mr Williams: Yes, go on.
Q194 Mr Mudie: Good. We were concerned
that it seemed to be targeted at only those on benefit. Are there
any people on low incomes who will be excluded from applying?
Mr Williams: It is targeted on
people on a range of benefits and also some people on low incomes
that get, for example, the working tax credit. Inevitably there
will be some people on low incomes who will not qualify because
they are not on—
Q195 Mr Mudie: Can you give us a
note as to those individuals and which income levels will not
be eligible and their numbers? [2]Thanks.
When I looked at your past documents you seemed to be very generously
putting some holidays in so people could miss three payments a
year, but when I looked at the documents there were no voluntary
payment holidays. The maximum target you could get was minus those
three. If you set the figure at £25 that would allow them
to do £300 a year; yes? No—over two years, £300
over two years.
Mr Williams: With the £25
you get you would be able to put in £300 in a year.
Q196 Mr Mudie: So that would be £600?
Mr Williams: Yes.
Q197 Mr Mudie: Thank you, Mr Williams.
Is this scheme envisaged to allow them to do the maximum, 24 times
the payment level agreed, unlike the pilots that took the holidays
out?
Mr Williams: That is the proposition,
that you can put in £25 a month for two years, yes.
Q198 Mr Mudie: Lovely. The last thing
is tax. ISAs are tax-free. There is no reference in the consultation
document to the interest paid on these accounts being tax-free.
Has that been decided already or is that a decision that we have
taken at one stage, that the interest on the accounts would be
tax-free?
Mr Williams: In general many of
these people will not be within the tax net in any event.
Q199 Mr Mudie: Is that no decision?
You have not decided or you will decide at the time?
Mr Williams: As of the current
law, Mr Mudie, people who are within the tax net would have to
pay tax.
1 Ev 59 Back
2
Ev 59 Back
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