Hywel
Williams: I welcome you to the Chair, Mrs.
Dean.
I welcome the
legislative competence order both as a member of the Welsh Affairs
Committee, which considered it, and as one of the sponsors of the Bill
that became the Carers (Equal Opportunities) Act 2004, which was
promoted by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis). I have a
long-standing interest in carers matters.
I agree with
what has been said from both sides of the Committee about the
importance of cross-border issues, and I should certainly like the
Welsh Assembly Government to address carers issues and other health
matters effectively, perhaps at the Measure stage, when there is a more
practical set of proposals to deal with. I think that the hon. Members
for Clwyd, West and for Brecon and Radnorshire were right to draw
attention to the matter, and I support
them. The
LCO was first introduced by my colleague in Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary
Jones, in February 2008, and was later adopted by the Welsh Assembly
Government. She has pointed to the delay in passing the LCO. I accept
entirely that the processes are slow—the wheels grind
slowly—but there are clearly carers in Wales who would benefit
from the passage of the LCO and subsequent Measures, so would that the
order had been passed earlier.
The order will
give the National Assembly power to legislate to promote the well-being
of carers, to support the provision of care by carers, and to compel
bodies to work together to provide information and other matters to
carers, all of which are long overdue. The Welsh Assembly Government
have the power to issue guidance to local authorities and the NHS in
Wales, but no power to legislate, which led to the need for the
LCO.
On the point
made by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West about guidance, when the Select
Committee took evidence on 2 March, I asked the Assembly Minister with
responsibility for
welfare: “could
the variation in service provision be improved simply by enforcing
existing statutory guidance regarding the provision of information and
carers’ assessments? Can you do that using the existing
statutory
guidance”. Her
answer was brief:
“In my
view, no, not
adequately.” I
take it that she has the required expertise to come to that judgment,
so I am happy to bow to her on that matter. The matter was discussed
extensively by the Committee, so I am happy to leave it with the
Minister from Cardiff saying, “No, not
adequately.”
The Assembly
has indicated its intention to introduce a Measure soon. That, of
course, is a matter for the Assembly but, as I said, I would welcome
that as soon as possible. To quote my colleague Helen Mary Jones
again: “There
was no opposition to this proposed LCO, either here or at Westminster,
yet carers who could have been enjoying enhanced rights today will have
to wait another six to nine months, at best, and possibly another 12,
depending on how Measures can be brought
forward.” There
is therefore a degree of
urgency. The
Welsh Affairs Committee eventually concluded, to cite page 3 of the
report’s
summary: “the
purpose of the proposed legislation which the Welsh Assembly Government
intends to make under this new competence is clear. The proposed Order
is consistent with previously announced Welsh Assembly Government
policy and the existing powers of the National Assembly for Wales in
the field of social
welfare.” Again,
that is clear enough for me. I hope that that leads this Committee to
support the power.
On the
exceptions issue, I could do no better than to refer to arguments
proposed by the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon.
Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), who discussed fixing each
exception or having floating exceptions. He noted that fixed exceptions
to specific matters have drawbacks: they are lengthy and potentially
unclear, and the need to consider all possible scenarios can lead to
great complications. Having floating exceptions fits in more naturally,
in drafting terms, and does not require cross-referencing. Hopefully,
that will lead to welcome change and simplicity in what I have said
many times is a fairly complicated system. Given the point that we are
at, I am happy to support the two orders but, as might be expected, I
say that the sooner we replace the powers with part 4 powers, the
better. 4.54
pm Mr.
Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): I will try
to behave under your chairmanship, Mrs. Dean. I apply a test
to such measures of whether they are needed and whether further
devolved powers are required, so I find a debate about whether the
powers are required of great interest. My position is that guidance
could and maybe should have been given and then reinforced, perhaps
through additional legislative competence, should that have been
required.
Nevertheless,
this is a very important issue for me in my constituency, as it is for
all hon. Members in Wales because we have a particularly high incidence
in Wales of the difficulties that arise from having to care for people.
I am particularly concerned about young carers. The sooner we get
something done about that, the better. If this measure helps to
reinforce the Assembly in doing that, I will not be parsimonious about
it or object to it in any way.
However, I
want to sound a note of caution. The question of not creating
disadvantage is very important. I have people coming to my surgeries
this week who are carers, and they are confused and very concerned.
They are concerned that carer’s allowance, individual
allowances, disability living allowance and so on are getting mixed up.
That confusion all arises from a consultation that is happening in
England about how changes might be made through discussion of a Green
Paper.
I want to ask
the Minister to ensure that collaboration is not just a one-way street.
The issue is not just about the Assembly explaining more effectively to
England what it might be doing and why it might want to do it; the
process works the other way, too. As the hon. Member for Caernarfon
said earlier, this is a very complex set of issues and we are all
interested in getting things right. So, can the Minister, in
considering this measure, look not only at what the Assembly, the Welsh
Affairs Committee, his Department and Parliament might do about the
mechanisms that apply but at some of the confusion and concern that
these consultations can engender among people who do not deserve that,
because they are already overburdened enough, thank you very much, with
the day-to-day difficulties of getting along and doing the caring that
they are charged
with? 4.57
pm
Mr.
David: It has been a brief but extremely positive and
worthwhile discussion.
First, I want
to say that I am very pleased that the proposed order on exceptions
seems to have support from all sections in the House. I think that
there is common agreement that it is essentially a technical matter,
and that we want to simplify things and make them more straightforward,
ensuring that there is as little complication as possible. So I will
not say any more about that proposed order.
With regard to
the carers order, several very important points have been made. As was
made clear by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West, an important starting
point for the debate is that the number of carers in Wales is
disproportionately large. We have a legacy of ill health, partly
because of the industrial process, and many people find themselves
having heavy burdens placed on them because of the need to care for
their loved ones. Therefore, I think that we are all united in ensuring
that there is greater support available, so that those carers are aware
of their rights and receive the greatest possible support to carry out
their caring role.
The hon.
Gentleman raised two specific points. The first was whether this LCO is
actually necessary. I suggest that it is necessary because, as the
Welsh Assembly Government Minister, Ms Gwenda Thomas, made clear in her
evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee and as I made clear in my
evidence, there is legislation in place. We can point to the Carers
(Equal Opportunities) Act 2004, which resulted from the private
Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for
Aberavon—the Carers (Equal Opportunities) Bill—and was an
extremely important measure. However, it essentially gave local
authorities responsibility to give due consideration to a request for
information, for example. This LCO would build on that work and take it
a stage further, to ensure that the Assembly had the responsibility to
do much more to ensure that local authorities provided much better
support and co-ordination for carers. So I think that the LCO is
necessary.
The second
point that the hon. Member for Clwyd, West made was about cross-border
implications, and a number of other Members also referred to that
subject. He is absolutely correct in pointing out that many of the
issues relating to carers are not peculiar to Wales; they stretch right
across the United Kingdom, on both sides of Offa’s dyke. It is
important that we should do
everything possible to ensure that there is the greatest co-ordination
and exchange of information between authorities in England and Wales.
The explanatory memorandum, as the hon. Member for Clwyd, West
mentioned, contains a specific reference to that, and the Assembly will
consider it carefully at Measure stage. We have
protocols in place, and those have been very successful to date. One of
the main functions of the Wales Office, these days, is to ensure that
such cross-border co-operation is mutually beneficial. I give the hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire a commitment that if the LCO is
successful and leads to Measures, the Wales Office will as always be
proactive in ensuring that the best cross-border co-operation takes
place. The
hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made some important points, and
referred to his general support for the order, as well as the need to
streamline the LCO process. I agree about that, and it is one reason
for our bringing forward the LCO on exceptions. It will streamline the
process and make things easier to traverse when we look at the statute
book. Nevertheless, a process of simplification will go on. We are at a
relatively early stage in the LCO framework powers process, and are
learning as we go along, and things will—as they are
doing—get smoother and more effective.
The hon.
Member for Caernarfon also gave his full support, and made the point
that the order emanates, in part at least, from the work of the
Assembly Member for Llanelli, but the LCO goes much further than what
was proposed by Helen Mary Jones and although it has perhaps taken a
little longer than she would have liked,
she would surely welcome the added value that it gives to her initial
modest
proposals. I
welcome the reference to young carers by my hon. Friend the Member for
Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. They in particular fulfil a vital social
role and deserve much more support than they currently
receive.
My final point
is the one that my hon. Friend made about collaboration. Devolution has
two essential purposes, I believe. The first is to bring decision
making closer to the people. That is effectively happening. Also,
different models of provision exist in different parts of the United
Kingdom. If devolution is to have the maximum positive impact, it is
incumbent on us to ensure that one part of the UK can learn from
another. I suggest that that is one of the key roles, in this
post-devolution era, of the Wales
Office. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Social Welfare) Order
2009. Draft
National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Exceptions to
Matters) Order
2009Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Exceptions to Matters) Order
2009.—(Mr.
David.) 5.3
pm Committee
rose.
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