Mr.
Donaldson: That is on the basis that I do not often talk
to myself on the streets of Lisburn; I accept that I should know who
the Members are, but even I would struggle now to reel off the five or
six names that I put on the piece of paper when I was nominated as a
candidate. I do not think any member of the public would know where to
go to find the names on that
list. I
take the point about democracy made by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury,
and I know that he values the right of electors to participate in and
influence what happens in Parliament and Assemblies. He makes a
valuable point. However, STV is not a normal system, and it is very
complex in comparison with the system that operates for Westminster. I
am still learning how it operates, and I have several times stood as a
candidate in elections for the Assembly under the single transferable
vote system.
The hon.
Member for Tewkesbury is right that we have not yet had the benefit of
a by-election to the Northern Ireland Assembly, but we know what
happens in local government by-elections in Northern Ireland. There
have been many examples of those. Under STV, for a candidate to be
elected in a by-election they need 50 per cent. plus one of the vote.
For the larger parties, that is generally not a difficulty, although
there could even be a situation in which, for example, in a
constituency in the west of Northern Ireland, which would be
nationalist dominated, a Unionist party would find it extremely
difficult to win a seat in a by-election to replace a Unionist who had
died or resigned from the Assembly.
Where there
was a very fine balance between Unionists and nationalists in the
Assembly, one or two by-elections could tip the balance. That becomes
even more important when one considers the voting system in the
Assembly, which is by cross-community consensus. Everyone elected to
the Assembly must register as either Unionist, nationalist or other,
and therefore the balance of the voting blocs in the Assembly on
important legislation can be affected by by-elections.
The smaller
parties also suffer in by-elections. Those parties are important in the
Assembly process because they form the Opposition. The four main
parties in the
Assembly at the moment are in the Executive. The only Opposition are the
Alliance party, with, I think, seven of the 108 Members, the Green
party with one Member, and three smaller parties or
independents—I think that the Progressive Unionist party has one
Member. So, there is a total Opposition of 11 out of 108 Members. It is
highly unlikely that on the death or resignation of one of those
Members—unless they were an independent—they would be
replaced by someone of the same party. The Alliance party, the Green
party and the Progressive Unionist party are highly unlikely to win a
by-election under STV in any of the 18 constituencies in Northern
Ireland. Therefore, in a way, the order protects the smaller parties
much more than the larger ones, although they, too, are affected if the
voting blocs in the Assembly change as a result of a by-election: for
example, if a Unionist resigns and is replaced by a nationalist in a
predominantly nationalist area. Therefore, I
support the need for the order because within the complex political
arrangements in the Northern Ireland Assembly it guarantees that the
distribution of seats by party and by voting bloc agreed by the
electorate—by voting in the Assembly election—is
maintained for the life of that Assembly. That is important; we have
enough uncertainties in the system in Northern Ireland without creating
unnecessary ones and that is why we are happy to support the order, not
because it necessarily protects the position of a party. The larger
parties do not benefit as much as the smaller ones from the order, but
it protects the political balance that is necessary to ensure the
Assembly’s proper, efficient and effective working in what are
still delicate and difficult political circumstances in Northern
Ireland. Of
course we hope for the day when we can have a more normalised political
system in Northern Ireland. The concerns rightly raised by the hon.
Member for Tewkesbury would become more relevant in those
circumstances. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)—who is
not here—recently said that we want to remove the “ugly
scaffolding” of the Good Friday agreement, which creates the
current complex system of democracy and checks and balances. What we
have is transitional—something that we hope will move us to a
better place, where we can have a more normalised political system. In
those circumstances, the kind of points that the hon. Member for
Tewkesbury has made would become
pertinent.
Mr.
Robertson: The right hon. Gentleman describes the present
structures and situation as transitional. I agree with him in hoping
that that is the case, but I am not sure that the Government are
convinced.
Mr.
Donaldson: I cannot answer for the Government here.
However, I would say in fairness that the St. Andrews
agreement—endorsed by the Government—makes provision for
change. As a result, we established an Assembly and Executive Review
Committee, which is taking forward the reform process. Its first task
is to deal with the devolution of policing and justice but thereafter
it will deal with all aspects of the operation of the Assembly and the
political institutions. In fairness, I think that the Government can
say that they have demonstrated, through the St. Andrews agreement, a
commitment to change and to the normalisation of political
arrangements.
We are happy
to support these changes: we believe that they are necessary in the
context of the current political arrangements. However, we hope that we
can move to a more normalised system in the
future.
2.55
pm
Paul
Goggins: I thank the hon. Member for Tewkesbury for his,
as ever, candid comments. His commitment to democracy is
unquestionable, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley has said. It
is certainly true that when one is operating within a
first-past-the-post system, getting used to the provisions of and the
practical arrangements for an STV system is a culture shock. It took me
some time to begin to adjust to it.
[Interruption.]
The
Chairman: Order. The officials are being a little over
officious.
Paul
Goggins: Thank you, Mr. Olner. Whether we are
councillors or Members of Parliament, if someone dies, we have a
by-election. That is what we are used to. It is not that
straightforward in Northern Ireland. I am grateful to the right hon.
Member for Lagan Valley for giving us an insider’s view of some
of the principal and practical issues that still exist in the Northern
Ireland system and that require careful thought, preparation and
provisions, which we are attempting to provide today.
There are
problems with the present system. Six names are provided at the point
of nomination, and as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley said,
“Who are they?” People do not know who they are. One may
argue that those names should be given greater prominence at election
time, but another possible difficulty is that names could be put into
the hat to try to influence the vote—perhaps well known
names—but the party would not intend those people to stand if a
vacancy arose. There are difficulties whichever way one looks. We are
looking for a practical solution.
The six names
are listed in descending order, but nobody knows which of them would
take the vacancy under the current system, because the first two may
decline and it would go to the third. There is no clarity, even if the
electorate know the names. Another possibility is that all six may
become unavailable. While there has been no Assembly by-election, there
has been a situation in which all six names were unavailable. That
causes difficulties for the chief electoral officer and the parties,
given party political rivalry and the necessity for community
background to play its proper role, which the right hon. Member for
Lagan Valley mentioned.
Mr.
Michael Mates (East Hampshire) (Con): Is the Minister
saying that this is a step on the way to further normalisation and
rationalisation of the system? If so, I think that the Committee ought
to listen to the advice of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley, who
is part of that system. If this is a step on the way, I am inclined to
advise my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury not to oppose it. If
the Minister is saying that this is the answer for the future, that is
another matter.
Paul
Goggins: It is a step along the way in the sense to which
the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley referred. We are talking about
the Assembly, in which cross-community support on certain issues is
very important. We all envisage and hope for a time when democracy
in
Northern Ireland is such that this kind of provision will not be
necessary—people will stand, be elected, argue and then
decisions will be taken openly. We are not at that point yet. There is
not yet the community confidence and the confidence in the electoral
process to allow that to happen. I cannot tell the right hon. Member
for East Hampshire what the end game will look like, but I can say that
this is a necessary step along the way.
Mr.
Robertson: Just before that useful intervention from my
right hon. Friend, the Minister said that there had been an occasion
when the list of six reserves had been exhausted but there was no
by-election. What happened in that
case?
Paul
Goggins: Quite simply, the chief electoral officer
confirmed that none of the six were available and there was no
by-election. That was in 2006 so it was not long before we moved to St.
Andrews. The St. Andrews agreement was mentioned previously, and I
would be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman to outline precisely what
provision it made. Today we are seeking to resolve that issue, not just
because of one difficult moment or occurrence, but because this problem
could occur in the future and cause difficulties. It is better to see
it in advance and to provide for
it.
Mr.
Robertson: I do not think that the Minister quite finished
the sentence. Was that vacancy filled or was it left vacant? If it was
filled, how was it
filled?
Paul
Goggins: It was left vacant. There was no by-election and
none of the six was available. Clearly, that is not satisfactory.
Because of where we were in the process at the time, we moved on to St.
Andrews and we had elections and happily all seats are now filled. We
are trying here to pre-empt a difficult situation, especially as we
have now devolved most powers to the Assembly. Indeed, we work very
closely to make sure that we can complete devolution as soon as
possible.
Mr.
Robertson: In that case, the vacancy was not filled. I do
not want to pick up the Minister on every word but he said that that
was not satisfactory and I agree with him. However, the provisions of
the Scotland Act 1998 allow for such a vacancy to remain until the time
of the next general election. I do not say that that is satisfactory
either and I am not asking the Minister to speak for Scottish
Ministers, but is there any move to change the situation in Scotland
and
Wales?
The
Chairman: Order. That is far beyond the remit of the order
before us today.
Paul
Goggins: I will pay close attention to your advice,
Mr. Olner, on how far to go in my remarks. I impress again
on the hon. Member for Tewkesbury the importance not just of party
politics but of community background. This is not about people being
precious; it has real practical application in the Assembly in terms of
cross-community votes. Section 3(3) of the Northern Ireland (St.
Andrews Agreement) Act 2006 disapplied article 7 of the Northern
Ireland Assembly (Elections) Order 2001 in the event of a vacancy so
that a by-election need not occur where none of the six was available.
But
that is not a satisfactory solution in terms of democracy because the
people in that constituency need representation. We found a way of
parking the problem, but we need to find a way of resolving
it. While
I understand that the hon. Gentleman has questions and some difficulty
with the proposal, our consultation revealed that the four main
political parties in Northern Ireland are all four-square behind it
because they understand the matter from the inside and are very happy
to give their support. Without straying too far, I acknowledge that
Scotland and Wales are different. I re-emphasise the
importance not just of party political allegiance and support but of
community
background.
Mr.
Donaldson: For the record, it is important to clarify that
this situation only arises where an MLA resigns from the Assembly or
dies. It does not apply in a situation where a Member resigns from a
political party, but continues to sit in the Assembly. The designation
issue is already covered in the legislation in that it is not possible
to redesignate from a Unionist to a nationalist within the life of an
Assembly, but it is possible to change political party. It is important
to put it on record that the situation arises in the event of a Member
resigning from the Assembly and not necessarily from his political
party. I have some experience of this.
Paul
Goggins: Another very well made point. Someone may resign
from the party but remain in the Assembly. But if that person were then
to be so fed up with politics that they resigned from the Assembly,
under our proposals the nominating officer of the party to which that
person belonged when they were elected would nominate a replacement.
That provides some transparency and connection directly back to the
electorate.
I hope that
enough has been said by me and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley,
who has direct experience of the Assembly as a Minister, about the
necessity of the draft order. I can well understand the reservations
and concern of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury, but I hope that he will
understand that this is the best solution to the problem, which has
already occurred to some degree, but which we are trying to anticipate
to ensure that it is no longer a problem. It is vital at this stage in
the development of democracy in Northern Ireland not to have any
hiccups; if we can foresee and deal with them, all the better. I ask
the hon. Gentleman and all members of the Committee to support the
order so that we can bring the Assembly regulations and legislation
into line with parliamentary
arrangements. Question
put.
The
Committee divided: Ayes 10, Noes
2.
Division
No.
1] Donaldson,
rh Mr. Jeffrey
M. Question
accordingly agreed to.
Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft Northern Ireland Assembly
(Elections) (Amendment) Order
2009. 3.7
pm Committee
rose.
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