The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
Clive Betts
Ancram,
Mr. Michael
(Devizes)
(Con)
Brown,
Lyn
(West Ham) (Lab)
Burden,
Richard
(Birmingham, Northfield)
(Lab)
David,
Mr. Wayne
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)
Davies,
David T.C.
(Monmouth)
(Con)
Dunne,
Mr. Philip
(Ludlow)
(Con)
Efford,
Clive
(Eltham) (Lab)
James,
Mrs. Siân C.
(Swansea, East)
(Lab)
Jones,
Mr. David
(Clwyd, West)
(Con)
Owen,
Albert
(Ynys Môn)
(Lab)
Pritchard,
Mark
(The Wrekin)
(Con)
Singh,
Mr. Marsha
(Bradford, West)
(Lab)
Stuart,
Ms Gisela
(Birmingham, Edgbaston)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Williams,
Hywel
(Caernarfon)
(PC)
Williams,
Mark
(Ceredigion) (LD)
Eliot
Wilson, Committee Clerk
attended the Committee
Fourth
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Tuesday 10
February
2009
[Mr.
Clive Betts in the
Chair]
Draft
Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (No. 2) Order
2008
4.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne
David): I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of
Functions) (No. 2) Order
2008.
Mr.
Betts, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. The order was
debated and approved in the other place on 4 February. It will effect
the transfer of functions under the Prisons Act 1952 from United
Kingdom Government Ministers of the Crown to Welsh Ministers. It will
help to improve the quality and relevance of the learning undertaken in
the prison estate in Wales. The duty to promote the education of the
people of Wales under section 10 of the Education Act 1996 was
transferred to the National Assembly for Wales in 1999 under the
National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 1999, SI
1999/672, along with the majority of functions under the Education
Acts. Those functions are now exercised by Welsh Ministers by virtue of
the Government of Wales Act 2006. Responsibility for the education of
persons detained under the order of a court is excluded from the scheme
of the Education
Acts.
The
responsibility for education in prisons in Wales currently lies with
the United Kingdom Government under the National Offender Management
Service, acting on behalf of the Ministry of Justice in conjunction
with the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills. Education
is provided in prisons in pursuance of the rules made under section 47
of the Prisons Act 1952. The function of making rules, which include
those relating to offender learning and the provision of library
services in prisons in Wales, is exercisable by the United Kingdom
Government. From April 2006, the former Department for Education and
Skills, now the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills,
funded NOMS Cymru for the delivery of prison education, training and
the commissioning responsibilities for offender learning and skills
provision in
Wales.
4.32
pm
Sitting
suspended for a Division in the
House.
4.44
pm
On
resuming
Mr.
David: The Welsh Assembly Government has a memorandum of
understanding with NOMS Cymru. The two organisations will continue to
work together throughout 2008-09 on commissioning arrangements for the
educational provision in Welsh prisons for the period following the
proposed transfer of functions on 1 April 2009. Welsh Ministers will be
responsible for
making prison rules in relation to the provision of education, training
and library services for those who are held in prisons in
Wales.
Welsh
Ministers already have power under the original transfer of functions
order made in 1999, SI 1999/672, in relation to education policy for
those serving sentences in the community in Wales. Those people fall
within the mainstream education system. It is obviously not a practical
proposition to seek powers in respect of prisoners from Wales serving
sentences in England. The transfer of functions will apply to the
existing public prisons at Swansea, Cardiff, Usk and Prescoed, the
private prison at Parc and any new prisons built in Wales, including
the prison to be built at Caernarfon. No decisions have yet been taken
about the size of the prison or the type of prisoners to be held there,
but the new prison will enable prisoners from north Wales to be held
nearer to their homes. I hope that it will also provide an opportunity
for prisoners to receive educational support through the Welsh
language, if they so
wish.
From
the date of the transfer of functions, the budget will move from the UK
Government, through DIUS, to the Welsh Assembly Government, who will
also work with NOMS Cymru to ensure a consistent approach to delivering
education and training throughout all prisons in Wales, including the
HMP and young offenders institution at Parc prison, with which it
contracts. The agreed transfer of resources to the Welsh Assembly
Government is projected to be £2,656,000 for 2009-10 and
£2,733,000 for 2010-11. That is an appropriate transfer of
resources.
The
Welsh Minister for Children, Lifelong Learning and Skills has consented
to the proposed transfer of functions from the UK Government.
Assurances have been given by the Secretaries of State for Innovation,
Universities and Skills, for Children, Schools and Families and for
Justice that, when the new prison is built in Wales or if an existing
prison is expanded, the current process for securing additional funding
from the UK Government for education, training and libraries will
apply. The Welsh Assembly Government will also work with NOMS Cymru on
the business case to the Treasury for funding for prison expansion, to
be covered in the winter or spring supplementary budget. The UK
Government have also provided assurances that consequential funding for
prison funding in Wales will be provided for 2011-12
onwards.
A
transfer of those functions should enable the Welsh Assembly Government
to take a strategic planning and management role, linked to their wider
skills and social justice agenda. That will provide a consistent level
of service throughout the prison estate in Wales, including in the
contracted HMP young offenders institution at Parc
prison.
I
have spoken with officials at length, and I can assure hon. Members
that it is absolutely clear that the prison rules apply to private
prisons and, hence, Parc prison is subject to the terms of the draft
order. I apologise for any confusion that may have been caused on this
issue. Welsh Ministers will be able to apply their learning policies to
all prisoners in custody in Wales. The transfer will integrate prison
education in Wales within mainstream education and training, helping to
provide co-ordinated learning for offenders before, during and after
their sentences. It will develop local solutions for the training and
educational needs of prisoners by utilising a diverse range of local
providers.
Members of the
Committee will be aware that the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and
Learning Bill, which was introduced in the House on 4 February, has
provisions to enable Welsh Ministers to place a legal duty on local
authorities to provide education for young offenders in Wales. It is
appropriate that Welsh Ministers exercise that function for prisoners
in Wales, as education and training are devolved matters. It will allow
all prison education to be fully integrated with current Welsh Assembly
Government policies on education, training and lifelong learning. I
commend the draft order to the
Committee.
4.49
pm
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): May I also say what a
pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Betts?
The Minister said something that was not apparent from either the
explanatory memorandum that has been circulated or, indeed, the debate
in the Grand Committee in the other place. I wish him to clarify at the
outset whether the order applies to Parc prison at Bridgend. I am sure
he will agree that the impression was given in earlier debates that
Parc prison, which, in fact, accounts for more than half of the prison
accommodation in Wales, was to be excluded from the terms of the order
given that it is a private prison. I see that the Minister is nodding,
so I assume that there was an earlier foul-up, which has been clarified
by his statement today. That gives me considerable reassurance, because
my party was concerned that the proposal would have led to
an inconsistency in the educational and training provision for
prisoners in the Welsh prison state. Fewer than half of them would have
been subject to the terms of the proposed order, while the others would
have been subject to the provisions of the current regime.
Having received that assurance from the Minister, I am considerably
reassured.
The most
important aspect of prison education and training is the issue of
consistency. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs identified that
point when it published its report, Welsh Prisoners in the
Prison Estate, in June 2007. In it, the Committee expressed its
concern about the generally low levels of educational attainment among
prisoners. It identified education and training as a key component of
the rehabilitation process undertaken with offenders in
prison.
A
particular concern identified by the Committee was the fact that the
transfer of prisoners between establishments can interrupt training and
educational programmes as they progress through the system. It noted
that the prison service was struggling to implement the effective
transfer of educational assessment data between prisons and between
prison and community-based education providers. It
stated:
The
ineffective transfer of information on educational achievement can mean
that individuals are repeatedly reassessed when transferring between
prisons or into community
settings.
The
report urged
NOMS
to
promote consistency in education and training qualifications between
prisons so that prisoners are able to continue their programmes if
transferred.
There
is, therefore, an identified need for consistency in education and
training provision in prisons throughout England and Wales. It was
certainly my partys concern that if the system in Wales had
been fragmented, as was the impression given previously, it would have
amounted
to a distinct disadvantage to prisoners who might be transferred from
prison to prison within the Welsh prison estate.
There remains
the concern, however, that many Welsh prisoners do not necessarily
serve their sentences in Welsh prisons. Similarly, the converse is
true. Approximately 20 per cent. of prisoners in the Welsh prison
estate come from outside Wales. Many are transferred from prisons in
England into Wales and from Wales into England. One of the points that
I would like the Minister to address is what arrangements will be made
to ensure that there is sufficient consistency of education and
training for those prisoners who may be transferred from one
educational regime to another. While one can see that there is a more
compelling case for devolution of that competence, given that it now
applies to the whole of the Welsh prison estate, there still remains
the issue of continuity of education and training for those prisoners
who may be transferred into Wales from England, and vice
versa.
It had been
my intention to oppose the order. However, I am considerably reassured
by what the Minister has told me, and if he will help me on the other
point that I raised, it is likely that I will not be troubling the
Committee for long this
afternoon.
4.54
pm
Hywel
Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): Mr. Betts, it is a
pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship.
On
behalf of my colleagues, I welcome this development, which is of
particular interest to me, as the hon. Member for Caernarfon. Last
weeks announcement of the intention to build a prison in
Caernarfon to serve the population of north Wales was welcome, as was
the decision to provide much needed Welsh language provision. I am very
much in favour of both of those developments. I am also a member of the
Welsh Affairs Committee, and I think it was I who suggested to that
Committee some time ago that we undertake an investigation of the
experiences of Welsh prisoners in prison estates, which led to our 2007
report recommending that we have a prison in north Wales and that we
address the needs of Welsh-speaking prisoners.
The report
also called on NOMS and the Welsh Assembly Government to examine the
gaps in the provision, and this order will go quite some way towards
addressing those gaps. We undertook a number of prison visits, and the
deficiencies became apparent fairly swiftly. I will refer to them later
in my remarks. We were concerned about continuity for individual
prisonersthose who, for example, half way through an
educational course, were suddenly transferred elsewhere. We were given
to understand that the consequence would be that the prisoners had to
restart their courses from the beginning. Therefore, the emphasis that
the Minister puts on continuity, and that which may be achieved within
what I might even call the prison system in WalesI do not think
we actually have a Welsh prison system as such, but we do have a prison
system in Walesis to be welcomed.
The hon.
Member for Clwyd, West referred to the 20 per cent. of
prisoners who come from England to Welsh prisons. I do not know if the
percentage will be the same when we have the prison in Caernarfon.
Irrespective of that, however, I am confident that proper arrangements
can be made so that the education provided for those prisoners within
the prison estate in Wales is
consistent with their needs when they are released and move back to
England. Ensuring continuity for the 80 per cent. is also
extremely important, and that continuity would be rather more difficult
to
address.
It
is reasonable that Welsh Ministers take responsibility for the
education of prisoners in Wales, but I am concerned about prisoners
held outside Wales. The Minister said that it was not practical to have
a change in responsibility in respect of prisoners from Wales who are
held outside Wales. I take his point entirely, but something should be
done about the provision for such prisoners. Suffice it to say that all
women prisoners from Wales are now held outside Wales, largely in
Staffordshire and also in Gloucestershire at Eastwood Park, so there
are Welsh women held outside Wales who will have educational needs
which arise from their experiences in Wales. Surely some effort could
be made to help them.
Young people
are the most acute example of Welsh prisoners being held outside Wales.
It is welcome that we have some places in Parc for people under 18, but
the majority of young Welsh people held in custody are held in England,
in places as far away as London and Newcastle. Those from my
constituency will largely have had their education through the medium
of Welsh; the provision in England is either nil or very close to nil
in respect of those young people. I urge the Government to look at what
provision could be made for them.
I was
concerned, as was the hon. Member for Clwyd, West, that private prisons
were not to be covered by the transfer, so I am reassured by what the
Minister said, not least because the prison in Caernarfon will be built
and run by the private sector. The important point to makethis
has been made to me repeatedly on my prison visitsis that while
they might be private prisons, they should be run to public standards.
This development is consistent with the way in which the judicial and
criminal justice systems in Wales have developed over the past few
years. For example, we have seen the establishment of Wales-wide
functions in the courts and the legal profession takes a good deal more
notice of Welsh needs. With the prison being built in Caernarfon, we
are going in that
direction.
As
has been noted, education is a devolved responsibility. The Welsh
Assembly Government are already responsible for the education service
for those serving community orders. Prison education is provided
in-house in each prison. The new provision should enable a more
effective Welsh strategic planning system to be tied to the wider
skills and social justice agendas, and in that respect, I welcome
it.
As
I said earlier, the order is particularly relevant to the education of
young people under the age of 18. There are obvious gains to be made,
particularly as the order ties educational provision to local
circumstances and local employment opportunities. I recently saw that
the reoffending rates of people who have proper educational facilities
in prison are reduced by half. Therefore, we should see, perhaps not a
halving of the reoffending rate, but a positive effect on those
rates.
I am going to
discuss the current educational provision, but firstI hope that
I will not diverge too far from the debateI should like to
refer to some of the visits that the Welsh Affairs Committee made. When
we visited Altcourse prison outside Liverpool, we found the standards
to be excellent. I have nothing but praise for both the facility and the
staff. However, when we visited the education department, in which
there were 38 computers, I found that none of the computer training was
carried out in Welsh. Moreover, at the time, none of the software was
available in Welsh either. I have heard that Word is now available in
Welsh for free. It is just a matter of downloading it. There is not
intentional negativity, but it is what happens if the educational
provision is not tied to local
circumstances.
Equally, when
I looked in the library I found a large room with many good modern
books that were heavily used by the prisoners. As for the Welsh books,
there were a couple of feet of rather old and tatty books, which I
would not read, let alone the young inmates of Altcourse.
Illiteracy is
high among the prison population, but it is even higher among Welsh
speakers. With the development of educational facilities in prisons in
Wales, I hope to see more services in the medium of Welsh. I looked at
the job opportunities advertised in the Daily Post on Monday.
Most were in the public sector, and in about two thirds of them Welsh
was stipulated as essential. The employment situation is changing is
north Wales, and possibly south Wales as well. If we arm prisoners with
Welsh language literacy and computer skills, we will help them to get
back into the world of
work.
Let
me turn to the provision of library services. Six weeks ago, as part of
my preparation for the announcement of the prison coming to Caernarfon,
I made a visit to Pentonville prison. The visit was arranged by my
friend Robyn Ross, who works in the mental health department there. We
looked at both the health and library provision. I notice that the
order refers to library provision. I was given to understand that such
provision would be made by the local authority, but the order says that
it would be set down in rules made by the Assembly. Will the Minister
explain how that will work in practice? The provision in Pentonville
prison, provided by Islington, seems to be excellent. I hope that local
authorities in south Wales will be able to provide the same level of
service to prisons. I would be grateful if the Minister addressed that
in his closing remarks.
5.5
pm
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve
under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Betts. I
reiterate my support for the order, the main rationale behind which is
that we need to ensure a much stronger link between the education that
prisoners receive, the support they receive as offenders and the
training and work that they secure after release.
Like the two
previous speakers, I want to raise the issue of practicalities. The
Minister has gone a long way to allay my main concerns over the
proportion of prisoners who would not be covered by the order. Perhaps
we should have read a little more into the statement by Lord Davies of
Oldham in another place. I think that he said that the salary for the
learning and skills manager at Parc prison was going to be funded by
the Assembly under the new transfer arrangements. We are told that the
operation of education at Parc will be under the remit of the Assembly,
which is welcome.
The hon.
Member for Clwyd, West was right to highlight the need for consistency
between English and Welsh prisons. He, the hon. Member for
Caernarfon
and other members of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee talked in the
conclusions to our report about the exchange of information between
prisons, offender passports, the transfer of records between prison
establishments and the prison and community settings. My main reason
for supporting the order is that we are talking about the need to
achieve consistency between what goes on in prison and what goes on
thereafter. In other words, it is giving the Assembly that strategic
capacity to take matters that much furtherto carry seamlessly
the process towards rehabilitation.
We have heard
that Welsh Ministers already have responsibility for the education of
offenders serving sentences in the community and I firmly believe that
they should have responsibility in this area, too. It is important
that, for those prisoners in Wales who will be released and
rehabilitated there, the process of rehabilitation through prison
education policy be integrated with the Assemblys policies on
education, training and lifelong learning in as seamless a way as
possible.
We have heard
about the problem of prisoners being moved and how that interferes with
education. I was a teacher in a previous life and I noticed that
problem when children moved from one school to another. We are dealing
with adults who have basic problems of illiteracy and innumeracy which
is a sensitive area. Consistency between prisons is important, but
providing consistency between the prison and outside is also vital. In
our Select Committee inquiry we looked at the development at Parc
prison of educational models in small packages to ensure that prisoners
completed them.
Lord Davies
spoke of a consistent core curriculum that would run between England
and Wales under the new order. Some might say, on that basis why are we
proceeding along these lines with a separate order from Wales? However,
if one examines the strategies that the National Assembly Government
are pursuing under the Joining Together in Wales: The Wales
Reducing Re-offending Strategy, one can see the many ways in
which the role of the Assembly is permeating the work on reoffending.
There were practical concerns that we wanted to raise, but they should
not detract from the basic principle of what the order is trying to
achieve.
While the
Ministry of Justice may have responsibility for offenders in Wales,
many of the mechanisms for reducing offending and for rehabilitation
are devolved to the Welsh Assembly Government, with the Minister for
Social Justice and Regeneration most directly concerned with the
reduction of crime. It is in that spirit that I support the order,
which will enable reoffending to be tackled across the widest possible
front and ensure consistency of delivery of education and
rehabilitation throughout Wales.
5.9
pm