Mr.
David: I genuinely welcome hon. Members’ comments,
which have been constructive. At the outset, so that there is no
ambiguity, I point out that the transfer order applies to the private
sector as well as to the public sector. One of the primary reasons for
that is that there must be consistency, as the hon. Member for Clwyd,
West said. That is one of the key concerns in our debate—that
there be consistency in Wales between public and private sectors, but
also that there be a high degree of complementarity between
both sides of Offa’s dyke.
The hon.
Member for Clwyd, West specifically raised that issue. The Learning and
Skills Council in England is currently trialling an arrangement to
transfer data on prisoners’ learning between prisons in
England—it will be fully active before August 2009—and
the system will be available to Welsh prisons as well. That is
something that we would all warmly welcome. That transfer of
information will ensure that there is a great deal of consistency
between the measures adopted, bearing in mind that what we want is to
ensure that measures are
appropriate.
Mr.
Jones: While we would all welcome the Minister’s
assurance that data will be transferred from one prison system to
another, what assurance can he give that, once equipped with that data,
the receiving prison system will be able to pursue a course that
follows seamlessly from the course followed by the prisoner in the
other prison
system?
Mr.
David: I fear that the hon. Gentleman is going way beyond
the measure that we have before us. Those are essentially issues of
practicality. What I am saying is that the means are in place, or
shortly will be, to facilitate that kind of co-ordination. I am sure
that, given the strong message issued by a number of people—not
least the Welsh Affairs Committee in its important report on the
matter, which I took the trouble to look at—we shall see
complementarity taking place on the ground, in prisons, because that is
the way forward. It is better for the prisoners, helps their
rehabilitation and helps them eventually to fit into the local
community. That is an important point to bear in
mind. The
hon. Member for Caernarfon mentioned the need for continuity, and that
a large number of prisoners from Wales are in prisons in England, which
we should keep in mind. The issue has to be addressed. I was pleased to
be told that there are examples of prisons in England where there are
courses provided through the medium of the Welsh language. That is to
be welcomed. It is good to emphasise that, although we are proposing a
measure that will allow greater coherence in Wales, an important part
of the agenda is to ensure that there is as much cross-border
facilitation as we can bring about. I am sure that we shall be mindful
of the petitioners once the order is in
place. The
hon. Gentleman raised the issue of libraries, which are vital for the
education and training of prisoners. Currently, NOMS has responsibility
for the library service and it intends to appoint the local authority
to provide that service. Arrangements in Caernarfon have yet to be
finalised, but that practice has worked very well in most cases, and I
am sure that will
continue. The
hon. Member for Ceredigion generally agreed with the proposals and the
clarification that I was able to give at the outset. It is important
that we reinforce those points, which he made extremely well, and move
forward on the issue in a consensual manner, as far as we can. I am
pleased that the measure has attracted cross-party support this
afternoon. It gives me great pleasure to commend the order to the
Committee. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of
Functions) (No. 2) Order
2008. 5.15
pm Committee
rose.
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