The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Browne,
Des
(Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
(Lab)
Cruddas,
Jon
(Dagenham)
(Lab)
Fisher,
Mark
(Stoke-on-Trent, Central)
(Lab)
Fitzpatrick,
Jim
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Transport)
Goodwill,
Mr. Robert
(Scarborough and Whitby)
(Con)
Griffiths,
Nigel
(Edinburgh, South)
(Lab)
Hunter,
Mark
(Cheadle) (LD)
Ingram,
Mr. Adam
(East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
(Lab)
Knight,
Mr. Greg
(East Yorkshire)
(Con)
Leech,
Mr. John
(Manchester, Withington)
(LD)
Reid,
John
(Airdrie and Shotts)
(Lab)
Seabeck,
Alison
(Plymouth, Devonport)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Timpson,
Mr. Edward
(Crewe and Nantwich)
(Con)
Tredinnick,
David
(Bosworth)
(Con)
Wilson,
Mr. Rob
(Reading, East)
(Con)
Mick Hillyard, Committee
Clerk
attended the
Committee
Fourth
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Tuesday 3
March
2009
[John
Bercow in the
Chair]
Draft Road
Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) Order
2009
10.30
am
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Jim
Fitzpatrick): I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Road Safety (Financial Penalty
Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) Order
2009.
I
am sure that I speak on behalf of the Committee when I say that it is a
pleasure to see you presiding over our proceedings, Mr.
Bercow. It is also a pleasure to see right hon. and hon. Members in the
Committee.
The
order is needed to help to implement a wider package of measures
designed to improve how we enforce road traffic law. The package
includes a new power that will allow examiners from the Department for
Transports Vehicle and Operator Services Agency to issue fixed
penalties for road traffic offences that they already routinely
prosecute in court. That will save time for all involved and leave both
VOSA and the courts more time to concentrate on more serious
offenders.
The
package also includes a new power for the Secretary of State to
graduate, by statutory instrument, the level of fixed penalties
according to the level of offending. A further new power will enable
the enforcement agenciesby that I mean the police and
VOSAto immobilise vehicles that are overloaded or unroadworthy
or, in the case of commercial vehicles, whose drivers have exceeded the
time for which they are permitted to drive without taking appropriate
rest. All the measures will help further to improve road
safety. They will be brought into force by our commencing relevant
sections of the Road Safety Act 2006 and making a number of statutory
instruments. Those statutory instruments are subject to the negative
procedure, apart from the order before the
Committee.
The
background to the order is the pressing need to give enforcement
agencies in Britain a much improved mechanism for dealing with foreign
road traffic offenders in particular and, indeed, for dealing with any
alleged offender who does not appear to have a satisfactory address in
the United Kingdom at which they could easily be located subsequently.
Hon. Members will appreciate that, as things stand, it is difficult for
our enforcement agencies to follow up routine offences committed by
foreign drivers while in Britain. It is possible for them to do so, but
it means having to issue a court summons outside the jurisdiction of
the UK. That carries uncertainty about whether an alleged offender
would be likely to respond to a summons or subsequently to pay any
court
fine.
In
practice, the unfortunate fact is that most routine road traffic
offences committed by non-UK-resident offenders are not followed up. In
turn, that weakens the
incentive for non-UK-resident drivers to comply fully with our road
traffic law. That is, for obvious reasons, not an ideal situation and
the Government have sought to correct it with new enforcement
provisions in the 2006
Act.
Once
implemented, the new provisions associated with this order will enable
the enforcement agencies to require the immediate payment of a
financial deposit from any alleged offender who does not have a
satisfactory address in the UK. That payment will be a deposit either
in respect of a fixed penaltyor a conditional offer in
Scotlandissued by the police or VOSA, or as a form of surety to
guarantee the payment of any fine that may be imposed following a
subsequent court hearing. The payment is classified as a deposit
because that is all it is when it is collected. The idea is to allow
alleged offenders not resident in the UK exactly the same 28-day period
as alleged offenders resident in the UK already have, under the
existing fixed penalty scheme, in which to decide whether they wish to
accept a fixed penalty or instead to go to court. Consequently, if an
alleged offender decides to accept a fixed penalty or conditional
offer, the deposit will simply be used to pay off the fixed penalty
sum. That process will happen automatically 28 days later unless within
that period the driver indicates that he wishes to have the matter
heard in
court.
If,
in such a case, a non-UK-resident driver indicates that he wishes the
case to proceed to court, the deposit will continue to be held until
the outcome of the hearing. Similarly, a deposit taken at the roadside
in respect of an intended prosecution will be held until the court
action has been concluded. At that time the deposit will be used to pay
off any imposed court fine. If the deposit payment exceeds the level of
court fine, the court will refund any overpayment together with any
accrued interest. If the court fine exceeds the level of deposit, it
will be a matter for the court to seek to collect any balance
outstanding.
What
the order does in detail is to prescribe the amount of deposit
requested in respect of particular offences. As hon. Members will have
seen, the level of deposit in respect of a fixed penalty
offenceor conditional offer in Scotlandis the same as
the level of fixed penalty. As prescribed in the schedules to the
order, the amounts range between £30 and £200, depending
on the particular offence. Clearly it makes sense to set deposits at
the same level as the relevant fixed
penalty.
The
level of deposit in respect of an offence that the enforcement agencies
intend to pursue in court is set at £300. That is to reflect
that, generally, only the more serious offences are likely to be taken
to court. In turn, those are most likely to carry higher penalty
levels. The draft order also sets a maximum of £900 in respect
of multiple offences detected on any single
occasion.
Our
objective was to set a level of deposit for court hearings that
reflected average fine levels for the type of offences concerned. It is
open to debate whether £300 is either too little or too much.
Arguably, £300 may seem a lot for a private motorist to pay, but
hon. Members need to bear in mind that we are only talking about
serious offences in respect of court deposits, and that the scheme
applies equally to commercial vehicles and drivers, where the gravity
of offences and penalty levels tends to be greater anyway.
We have of
course consulted on the details, and I can confirm that we, frankly,
have had no better suggestions. On the contrary, the majority of those
who submitted responses were in agreement with our proposals. We shall
keep things under review once the deposit scheme is up and
running.
In
summary, I remind the Committee that, although the notion of taking
financial penalty deposits on the spot from alleged road traffic
offenders is novel in Britain, it is commonplace elsewhere in Europe.
The scheme we are implementing is fair and will mean that all alleged
road traffic offenders are ultimately treated in a similar way,
irrespective of where they live and of the country in which their
vehicle is registered. It will go a considerable way to resolving the
current unsatisfactory situation in which traffic offenders who are not
resident in the UK are more likely to escape than are UK
residents.
To
conclude, the draft order is a fundamental feature of the new scheme.
Without this affirmative order, the financial deposit
aspect of the 2006 Act cannot be implemented. I therefore commend the
order to the
Committee.
10.37
am
Mr.
Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): It is a
great pleasure to see you in the Chair today, Mr. Bercow,
and to be in such illustrious company throughout the
Committee.
Foreign
lorries are three times more likely to be overloaded, defective or
driven by drivers contravening driving hours regulations, according to
VOSA statistics. We welcome the allocation last year of £24
million to VOSA to recruit and train 130 new people to staff
round-the-clock checks. Have those staff been recruited? What about the
target set by VOSA to increase the number of roadside checks by a
factor of five, so that 22,500 checks per annum are being carried out
on foreign vehicles? Will the Minister confirm that there has been no
mission creep, because of financial constraints, on that
target?
There
is no point catching foreign trucks if the drivers abscond without
paying the penalties. Therefore, we support the measureit is
long overdue. We are used to seeing many foreign vehicles on our road,
not only foreign cars driven by the many EU nationals who have come to
the UK to work, but also a large number of foreign heavy goods
vehicles. In 1997, 671,000 foreign-registered commercial vehicles over
3.5 tonnes left the UK, but by 2004 that figure had risen to 1.595
million vehiclesa trend that has continued. That figure was
confirmed in the answer to a parliamentary question asked by my hon.
Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson). The
answer was given by the hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr.
Ladyman) on 9 January
2006.
The
Government have failed to take action to create a level playing field
for the UK haulage industry and this is only one part of that problem.
UK hauliers face competition from foreign trucks that in many cases
have filled up with 1,100 litres of cheap French or Luxembourg diesel
and pay much lower levels of vehicle excise duty. The draft order
addresses just one of the problems that contribute to us not having a
level playing field for our hauliersit addresses one
inequality. It does not attack foreign drivers, but it will restore
equality before the law.
I hope that
the Minister will respond to one or two questions. The deposits that
have been set are in line with the fines. Will there be an automatic
increase, year on year, as fines increase, or will it be
necessary to come to the House to increase the
fines?
Mr.
Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con):
Deposits.
Mr.
Goodwill: Indeed. Will the level of court fines be
monitored so that the level of deposit levied on foreign trucks will
increase in line with the fines? The Minister mentioned that refunds
would be made where cases go to court and the fine levied was less than
the deposit. Although he mentioned that interest would be payable on
the deposit refunded, who will bear the cost of an international money
transfer, which in some cases may be used to refund the money and may
cost £10 or £20? Will that sum come out of the deposit or
will that be borne by the court? Will the courts be tempteddare
I say it?to levy a fine of £300 to cut down on both the
administration of issuing refunds and the hassle of trying to extract
money over and above the deposit to make life simple? Will the Minister
take steps to ensure that the level of fines given to foreign vehicle
owners or operators and to UK operators are monitored to ensure that we
are not setting a benchmark for foreign operators and that, if fines
increase for UK operators, the level for foreigners increases as
well?
What
will the practicalities of extracting the deposits be? I assume that
nobody is suggesting that people will be marched to a cash point, but
will the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency officers and police
officers be allocated credit card processing facilities or will they
require cash? How will the deposits be extracted? It is important that
the process is as simple as possible. Haulage drivers, by and large,
have the wherewithal with them to pay for fuel and other costs. If the
deposits could be taken on the spot, in the same way, it would make
life much easier.
The
Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen no mention of
offences relating to not having insurance. We are all aware of that
problem. Although we have a good database in the United Kingdom and the
automatic number plate detection systems will flag up UK-registered
vehicles that are not insured, is it possible to extend the scheme to
cover non-UK non-insured vehicles? How far down the road are we to
having a European database, using the technology that exists for
UK-registered vehicles, to ensure that we can check at the
kerbside whether foreign-registered vehicles are insured and so that we
can therefore levy deposits or fines in the same way that those are
levied on UK
operators?
What
took the Government so long? How much has been lost in fines to the
Exchequer over the intervening period? Is it possible, when vehicles
and drivers return to the UK, having previously absconded without
paying fines levied, to use this system to reclaim fines that should
have been paid, or will the order relate only to actual fines levied at
the time? People who have been fined and have absconded might return to
the UK and a mechanism needs to be in place to ensure that any arrears
on penalties or fines can be collected from them. The mechanism in the
order seems a sensible way of getting hold of those arrears.
We warmly
welcome the order and look forward to working with the Government to
address any issues that may arise in connection with its introduction
and
operation.
10.44
am
Mr.
John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): As always,
Mr. Bercow, it is a great pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship. We warmly welcome the draft order, which expands on the
graduated fixed penalties, financial penalty deposit and immobilisation
schemes by laying out the deposits that will be
required.
We
supported the idea of penalty deposits during debate on the 2006 Act
because they give the police more scope to tackle drivers who
consistently flout our road safety laws and get away with it. Too
often, foreign driversfrequently, foreign lorry
driverscan evade fixed penalty notices or a court summons
simply because they are not resident in the UK. They should not be able
to get away with it. They not only avoid paying for that particular
offence, but know that they are likely to get away with future
offences. Foreign drivers currently have no real deterrent, and once
they are at home, they can easily avoid going to court. I am therefore
pleased to support the proposals, which we all hope will act as a
deterrent to foreign drivers breaking the rules of our roads.
However, I
would be grateful if the Minister could answer a number of questions.
On the £60 deposit for exceeding the speed limit, there should
surely be some discretion in the amounts asked as a deposit by police
officers. For example, if a driver is exceeding the speed limit by 20
or 30 mph on a road by a school in difficult driving conditions, surely
the policeman should be able to impose a higher deposit. I would
imagine that, in some such cases, the police officer would rather
introduce a court summons where ultimately the fine penalty could be up
to £1,000. Is there the flexibility for the police officer to
reflect that in the deposit, because £60 is not much punishment
in the case described, especially if there is little chance of the
offender turning up to court to pay the
remainder?
During
the Committee stage of the Road Safety Bill, the Minister at the time,
the hon. Member for South Thanet, stated:
If a
policeman believes that an offence is serious enough to go to court,
where a higher fine could be imposed than the deposit, then the deposit
that he will ask for will be commensurate with the higher potential
fine.[Official Report, Standing Committee
A, 23 March 2006; c.
119.]
Does
that mean that the figures in the order are flexible, or have the
Government decided to fix
them?
At
the time of the Bill, the Government said that those fines would need
to be paid in cash. Is that still the case? Many people do not carry
around a great deal of cash, so will there be an option for police
officers to take drivers to the nearest cash point to get money out,
which is a practice often used by dodgy private clampers? Have the
Government looked at any other forms of payment at the roadside? We do
not want to be in a position where a number of drivers have no facility
to pay at the roadside.
Another issue
on which I would like some clarification is the Governments
definition of a person who does not have a satisfactory address in the
UK. In addition to drivers from abroad, could that also include those
who have avoided paying fines or have missed court dates in the past?
Perhaps it could include people who are not resident at the address
that they have given in the past or who are difficult to get hold of
when their court date approaches. Will the police check the past
traffic history of the drivers to see whether there are any outstanding
penalty notices or court summonses? Surely those persistent offenders
need targeting just as much as foreign drivers. Does the Minister
accept that the order would be a good opportunity to target those
individuals as
well[Interruption.]