The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Christopher
Fraser
David,
Mr. Wayne
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)
Evans,
Mr. Nigel
(Ribble Valley)
(Con)
Havard,
Mr. Dai
(Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab)
Jones,
Mr. David
(Clwyd, West)
(Con)
Llwyd,
Mr. Elfyn
(Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
(PC)
Main,
Anne
(St. Albans)
(Con)
Marsden,
Mr. Gordon
(Blackpool, South)
(Lab)
Morgan,
Julie
(Cardiff, North)
(Lab)
Mudie,
Mr. George
(Leeds, East)
(Lab)
Owen,
Albert
(Ynys Môn)
(Lab)
Pritchard,
Mark
(The Wrekin)
(Con)
Ruane,
Chris
(Vale of Clwyd)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Thornberry,
Emily
(Islington, South and Finsbury)
(Lab)
Watkinson,
Angela
(Upminster)
(Con)
Williams,
Mark
(Ceredigion) (LD)
Mr A
Sandall, Committee Clerk
attended the Committee
The following also attended, pursuant to Standing
Order No. 118(2):
Dorries,
Nadine
(Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con)
Fourth
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Tuesday 12
May
2009
[Christopher
Fraser in the
Chair]
Draft
National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Agriculture and
Rural Development) Order
2009
4.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne
David): I beg to move that,
The Committee
has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative
Competence) (Agriculture and Rural Development) Order
2009.
May I
begin by saying that it is a pleasure to be here today and to serve
under your chairmanship, Mr
Fraser?
The
draft order forms part of the legislative programme set out by the
First Minister of the Welsh Assembly Government, the right hon. Rhodri
Morgan AM, on 15 July 2008. It inserts a single matter into
field 1the agriculture, fisheries, forestry and rural
development fieldof schedule 5 to the Government of Wales
Act 2006. These are the first legislative powers to be
conferred on the National Assembly in this area. Hon. Members will know
how important this industry is to Wales. Red meat contributes some 39
per cent. of Waless agricultural output and Wales accounts for
over 25 per cent. of the total levy on sheep collected in Great
Britain. A thriving red meat industry is vital to Wales and important
to the UK as a
whole.
The
order would enable the National Assembly to legislate in relation to
the promotion and development of a red meat industry in Wales.
Specifically, the order would enable the Welsh Assembly Government to
fulfil their policy aim of conferring on Welsh Ministers the functions
currently carried out by the Welsh Levy Board, including raising a levy
on the Welsh red meat sector. This is not possible under existing
powers.
Honourable
Members may find it helpful if I briefly summarise the background. In
2005, the Radcliffe review looked at the then five GB and UK statutory
agricultural and horticultural levy bodies, covering potatoes,
horticulture, cereals, meat and livestock and milk. The Natural
Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 led to the abolition of
these boards and the creation of a new Agriculture and Horticulture
Development Board. The NERC Act also allowed the Welsh Ministers to
create separate Wales-only bodies for the development, promotion and
sustainability of their respective
industries.
The
Welsh Assembly Government consulted the agricultural industry in Wales
about how best to manage future promotion and development in each of
these sectors. The industry wanted separate arrangements for the
development and promotion of the red meat sector in Wales because of
its importance to rural community infrastructure and the wider rural
economy. Consequently, in February 2008, Welsh Ministers established
the
Welsh Levy Board to set and raise red meat levy in Wales. The
other levy-raising sectors in Wales are administered by the AHDB as
part of GB-wide arrangements, in respect of the horticulture, milk and
potato sectors, and UK-wide arrangements for the cereal and oilseed
sector.
It
is the general policy of the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that
their functions are exercised in-house wherever possible, rather than
by arms-length bodies or quangos. While the NERC Act allows Welsh
Ministers to create separate Wales-only bodies for the development,
promotion and sustainability of the respective agricultural industries,
it crucially does not allow the National Assembly to confer those
functions directly on Welsh Ministers. The Welsh Levy Board currently
sets and raises a levy for the Welsh red meat industry to fund the
promotion and marketing of the industry.
In practice,
the Board has delegated many of its functions to Hybu Cig Cymru, a
company limited by guarantee and wholly owned by the Welsh Ministers.
As a result of the competence conferred by this order, the Welsh
Assembly Government would be able to bring forward legislation in the
National Assembly to abolish the Welsh Levy Board and confer its
functions on Welsh Ministers, including raising a levy on the Welsh red
meat sector. That would make Hybu Cig Cymru directly accountable to the
Welsh Ministers, streamlining the levy-raising process and making it
more efficient and
accountable.
The
scope of the powers conferred on the National Assembly reflects those
functions already given to the Welsh Ministers and Secretary of State
by the NERC Act. This ensures that levy-raising powers are set within a
broader context of developing the red meat industry in Wales. A levy is
simply a means of developing the industry through financial support. Of
course, it is what gets delivered as a consequence of the levy that
really matters.
This draft
order has already been unanimously approved by the National Assembly
for Wales in plenary on 31 March. It has also been subject
to pre-legislative scrutiny by a committee of the National Assembly in
Cardiff bay and by the Welsh Affairs Committee and the House of Lords
Constitution Committee here in Westminster. As always, I am grateful
for the thorough and considered scrutiny that they have undertaken. I
was very pleased to read the conclusion of the Welsh Affairs Committee
that
the
Welsh Assembly Government has identified a clear need for the proposed
Order
and
that the competence that the order confers:
represents a
useful addition to the Assemblys
powers.
The
Lords Constitution Committee simply confirmed that the order does not
raise any matters of constitutional principle.
The draft
order before this Committee today demonstrates the UK
Governments commitment to devolving legislative competence to
the National Assembly for Wales. It shows that the system of conferring
legislative competence on the National Assembly by means of Orders in
Council, or legislative competence orders as they are better known, is
working very well.
I believe
that it is right that, through this order, key decisions about the red
meat industry in Wales will be taken by the National Assembly and, if
the Assembly so
decides, by Welsh Ministers. The order will enable the best possible
framework to be put in place to ensure effective leadership for the
industry during these economically challenging times.
I commend
this order to the
Committee.
4.37
pm
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): Thank you, Mr.
Fraser. I also want to say what a pleasure it is to serve under your
chairmanship
today.
We
do not intend to oppose the making of the order and I am sure that the
Committee will be pleased to hear that I intend to keep my remarks
short. As we have heard from the Minister, the effect of the order is
to amend the provisions of the Natural Environment and Rural
Communities Act 2006, so as to enable the Welsh Assembly to pass a
measure or measures that would result in the dissolution of the Welsh
Levy Board, which, as we have heard, is currently responsible for
promoting the Welsh red meat industry, and also to enable alternative
arrangements to be put in place.
As I
understand it, from reading the explanatory memorandum and after
hearing the Ministers explanation today, it is the intention of
the Welsh Ministers to take the functions of the Welsh Levy Board
in-house and to carry out those functions themselves. That is all of a
pattern with the policy of the current Welsh Assembly Government, which
tends to take a highly centralist approach to the delivery of its
policy objectives. That approach has resulted, for example, in the
abolition of the Welsh Development Agency and the Wales Tourist
Board.
The
Conservative party takes the view that, generally speaking, such
centralisation has not been beneficial. However, it is clear from the
draft order and it was also confirmed by the Welsh Affairs Committee in
its pre-legislative scrutiny that abolition of the Welsh Levy Board, as
a consequence of this order, would not necessarily mean that the board,
or some similar arms length body, could not be re-established
at some time in the future by a Welsh Assembly Government of a
different complexion.
I note from
the Select Committees report that it is the intention of the
Welsh Assembly Government to preserve Hybu Cig Cymru in its present
form. That also appears to have been confirmed by the Minister this
afternoon. Hybu Cig Cymru is very highly valued indeed by the Welsh
livestock industry and the Conservative party would be extremely
concerned if its functions were undermined in any way. We trust that
the Welsh Assembly Government will be as good as its word in regard to
the preservation of Hybu Cig Cymru.
The Minister
said that the passage of these measures indicates that the legislative
competence order system is working. However, it is worth noting that
the only reason that we are considering this draft order at all is that
the Assembly Government did not take the opportunity in sufficient time
to have its preferred model for promotion of the Welsh red meat
industry incorporated in framework powers in the Natural Environment
and Rural Communities Act 2006, which I feel was a missed opportunity.
I would suggest to the Minister that the lesson to be learned is that
far closer consultation needs to take place at an earlier stage between
Whitehall ministries and the Assembly Government so as to avoid the
need for unnecessary legislation at a later date. In this connection,
clearly the Wales Office has a central role. Those are the only comments
I wish to make on the draft order. As I have said, we do not intend to
oppose it.
4.41
pm
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Thank you, Mr.
Fraser. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this
afternoon. My party wholeheartedly welcomes this LCO. It is an
important order for Welsh agriculture. It fits well with the current
devolutionary settlement on agriculture. Most of the functions with
regard to meat production have already been devolved and it is entirely
sensible that we should continue giving the Assembly Government all the
powers that they need to promote the critical red meat
sector.
Looking
around the room at the constituencies represented here, the red meat
sector is critically important to the economy of rural Wales. It is
essential that the powers relating to the sector should be held in one
place, where possible. It is not appropriate to delve into the debate
about the effectiveness of the LCO process in Committee. We had
effective scrutinising in the National Assembly. I think it was the
first time that the Welsh Affairs Committee, of which I am a member,
had informative informal discussions with the relevant Assembly
committee.
The
LCO has wide-ranging support. The seven submissions to the Assembly
Committee were universal in their support for the order. It will allow
the Assembly Government to work with the industry to improve the
marketing and promotion of the sector, and will give the Assembly
Government the legislative powers to increase efficiency and
productivity, improve and develop the services the industry provides to
the community, and improve the industrys contribution to
sustainable development.
I would like
to place on record my support for the comments made by the Welsh
Assembly Government Minister, Elin Jones, who happens to share a
constituency with me. In that constituency is the headquarters of Hybu
Cig Cymru. Elin Jones made the point that it will remain independent of
the Assembly Government. During her evidence to the Welsh Affairs
Committee, she also made the critical point about accountability.
Notwithstanding that, the independence of Hybu Cig Cymru is extremely
important. It needs to work with the Assembly Government and the
industry to promote the red meat sector. A hands-off approach is a
better approach at this
stage.
The
Assembly committee also considered the question of levy-setting and
consequences for cross-border issues. That is a matter for the future
measures that we believe the Assembly should be in a position to make.
I am sure that they will consider that. It is a rightful matter for the
National Assembly. I look forward to seeing the measures that arise
from the LCO to support a critical sector in the Welsh
economy.
4.43
pm
Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): Thank you,
Mr. Fraser. It is a great pleasure to serve under your very
able chairmanship, albeit for a short period of time,
hopefully.
The
immediate purpose of this draft order is to give the Welsh Assembly
Government more and greater flexibility in order to define the
arrangements for the
determination of levies raised from the red meat sector, which I hope in
turn will promote and develop our Welsh red meat industry. As has been
said, that industry in Wales is extremely important to the Welsh
economy. It is important that we are able to compete in terms of
advertising with other parts of the UK and also, beyond these shores,
across the channel. I welcome this as an added tool for the Welsh
agriculture industry. I do not see that giving greater powers to Hybu
Cig Cymru will in any way stymie its independence. I would argue that
it is quite the opposite. In any event, there is no point in getting
bogged down in
semantics.
We
have in effect a new strategic action plan, which we hope will
safeguard and further develop the Welsh red meat industry. The
strategic action plan was prepared by Hybu Cig CymruMeat
Promotion Walesand it aims to improve business performance,
develop innovation and business links, improve the industrys
level of understanding of market trends and, crucially, influence
consumer behaviour.
More than
33,000 people are employed in the red meat supply chain in Wales. The
industry contributes £361 million a year to the Welsh economy,
including red meat exports of about £108 million per annum, 43
per cent. of the total annual value of Welsh agricultural output. We
cannot really stress too heavily on the need for that kind of
innovative and strategic approach. They are very substantial
figures.
The
whole approach has been fully welcomed by the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru,
Mr. Rees Roberts, and he would, would he not, seeing as he
drafted the thing in the first place. I understand that the impetus of
it came from Mr. Roberts, and he is a person well known to
all of us, and a person who has the best interests of agriculture at
heart. With those few words, my party, Plaid Cymru, and I believe every
other party represented here, fully welcome the innovative change in
the law. I hope that it will bring great benefit to the Welsh
agriculture
industry.
4.46
pm
Mr.
Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): It is nice
to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Fraser. I have not
done so before, and I will try to behave myself. I get worried when I
read documents such as the one before us. I look at the part that deals
with consultation, and the first sentence says that there has been no
consultation on the order. In fact, as Members opposite have explained,
there has been consultation, but it is taking place in such a way that
involves the legislative competence order process, which I am watching
very
carefully.
On
this occasion, perhaps everyone will be relieved to know that I have no
objection to this particular transfer of power. The reason for that has
partly been explained elsewhere. For a long time, there has been a need
for a strategic approach on a deal of questions in Wales, and that is
what the Cynulliad, the Assembly, is supposed to provide. If the order
enables it to do that better, then I am in favour of it. I shall give
an example. I live in the rural, urban, south Wales, ex-coalfield
valleysit is all of those things. It is not one thing, but a
number of things. I have five family farms in my constituency that
have now collaborated, Cig Mynydd Cymru, and they are very prosperous in
terms of promoting their own produce in my ex-mining valley town in
Treharris. Go to 16B Perrott street, and Steve Davies will sort you out
with some excellent meat that comes from those valleys. It is not just
rural Wales, as has been understood elsewhere, but the valleys of
Wales, in the old industrial valleys, as well as the rest of Wales,
that produce an input into the industry, and the order gives them the
development possibilities. I understand the point about centralisation
of administrations and bureaucracies, but the key word is strategic. On
this occasion, I am only too happy to see its ability to behave more
strategically and help small organisations and the large producer
interests, which have been known to have their own ability to promote
their cause. On that basis, I welcome the
order.
4.48
pm
Mr.
David: First, I thank all Members for their support
this afternoon. It is good to see that the order has a broad amount of
consensus between all political parties, and that is
important.
I
will respond to a few points that have been raised. First, on the issue
of consultation, there has been a tremendous amount of it. There has
been consultation with the two farming unions in Wales, the Assembly
Members and the Welsh Affairs Committee. There has been an ongoing
debate in the industry, in Parliament and in the National Assembly.
Frankly, it is difficult to imagine that there could have been more
consultation than what there has been on the
issue.
With
regard to Hybu Cig Cymru, a firm commitment has been given by the Welsh
Assembly Government that they have no intention of reducing its
independence or autonomy, and it will continue to be a free-standing
body. As one hon. Member mentioned, the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru is also
supportive of the
order.
Furthermore,
the headline of an article in the Western Mail on Hybu Cig Cymru
and the support for the red meat industry read, New read meat
strategy hailed as vibrant catalyst for Wales. It is important
to recognise that the order represents one element of that broader
strategy; all of the elements fit together, and maintaining the
effectiveness and autonomy of Hybu Cig Cymru is central to that
strategy.
On
the points raised by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West, the LCO system is
generally working very well. It could be improved and streamlined, but
it is a new process and we are learning as we go along. The order is a
small but important example of how the system under the Government of
Wales Act 2006 is working very well indeed. The order is not a
path-breaking measure, but, as I told the Welsh Affairs Committee, it
addresses an anomaly that existed and was widely recognised for some
time. The timing of the consultation on the Radcliffe review was very
important and meant that it was not physically possible to include a
framework provision in the NERC Act, because by the time the Bill was
drafted and the proposals of the Welsh Assembly were formulated, the
Bill was itself in its latter, parliamentary stages. The issue
therefore relates to timing, rather than to a lack of political will or
co-ordination, and this LCO essentially addresses the gap that existed
at that time.
I welcome the
comments made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion, and the support of the
hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. It is important that rural
areas in particular recognise that the order is a significant element
in enhancing the prosperity of the rural parts of
Wales.
The
hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney is absolutely right to
mention the need for a strategic approach to the matters under
discussion. The National Assembly for Wales is using its new powers to
develop a whole host of different policies in a range of different
areas, and the order is but one element of the Assemblys
broader strategy to improve the situation in Wales for the betterment
and well-being of the people of Wales. While I do not claim that this
measure alone will transform the face of Wales or of
agriculturefar from itit is nevertheless a crucial
ingredient in taking us
forward.
Mr.
Llwyd: For once, I disagree with the Minister, because he
understates the orders importance. Given that over 25 per cent.
of the UKs entire sheep population is in Wales, and given the
need to concentrate on the red meat sector, the order is actually
crucial to Welsh agriculture. Without the order, Welsh agriculture
would not be competitive and would in effect be doomed, so, although it
might not look like very much, it is an important piece of
legislation.
Mr.
David: The difference between us is one of language more
than anything else. This is an important measure
that has been prioritised by the National Assembly for Wales, has been
thoroughly scrutinised and is broadly supported by the agricultural
industry in Wales. My point is that, by itself, it is not going to lead
to a transformation of the
situation.
Mr.
Havard: The point that I tried to make earlier was that
agriculture is part of the picture, and a strategic approach in the
south Wales valleys, for example, is about developing all of the things
that are necessary in a co-ordinated jigsaw of activities, because the
valleys are both industrial and rural. If there is no strategy for each
individual part as well as for the whole, there is no strategy. In that
sense, the order is a vital component, but it is not the be all and end
all.
Mr.
David: I think that there is a broad consensus across the
Committee. I certainly do not disagree with my hon. Friends
point; the order is as important for south Walesthe valleys in
particularas it is for rural areas. I am very pleased that
there is a broad consensus in relation to the
measure.
Question
put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That
the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Agriculture and Rural Development) Order
2009.
4.55
pm
Committee
rose.