Mr.
Jones: I simply sent them a copy of the proposed order.
They were already aware of it, because it is a matter of concern that
has clearly been running through the industry for a considerable time.
It was clear to me when I spoke to those bodies and builders that they
had significant concerns about the proposal, and the likely damage to
the construction industry in
Wales. Our
view is that the proposed transfer of functions should not be made at
this difficult economic time. We are particularly concerned that the
Welsh Assembly Government seem to want to use the Welsh building
industry as a guinea pig. The Wales Office’s briefing note
states: “WAG
believe that we should be able at the scale of Wales to find solutions
that will allow us to offer the prospect of Wales being a test-bed for
wider UK government
implementation.”
Albert
Owen: First, I asked whether the hon. Gentleman had
contacted the construction workers’ union. For full
consultation, it is important to consult both
sides. Secondly,
does the Conservative party in Wales have a target for low-carbon
housing? Mr.
Jones: I did not consult the union, but the industry
bodies. I believe that the target of the Conservative party in Wales
for low-carbon housing mirrors the national targets.
To summarise,
there is serious concern in the industry at the prospect of Wales
having a building regulations regime separate from England during this
depressed economic time. Thousands of Welsh jobs depend on there being
a vibrant house building sector in Wales. I suggest that the Minister
give serious consideration to deferring the transfer of functions order
until the Welsh Assembly Government have consulted the construction
industry in Wales. Given the potential impact on the sector, I believe
that that is the right thing to do. We regard this as an issue of such
importance that if the order is approved by the Committee, it will be a
priority of the next Conservative Government to review
it. 4.50
pm Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve
under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Cook.
I will
restrict my comments to the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of
Functions) (No. 2) Order 2009. We are happy to support the other
instrument, as it is merely a tidying-up
order. The
transfer of functions order will transfer responsibility for most of
the functions under the Building Act 1984 that have not been
transferred by previous provisions to the Welsh Assembly. The powers
are being transferred to support the Assembly Government’s
objective of reducing carbon emissions, in particular the carbon
reduction target of 3 per cent. per annum. There are two underlying
principles to the order, to which the Minister alluded. The first is a
holistic approach to building regulations, planning, design,
construction and targets. The second is an ongoing dialogue with the
industry, and I welcome his comments on that.
The Welsh
Assembly Government are already responsible for most housing and
planning matters. It is logical to bring building regulations under the
control of the Assembly. There may well be a debate to be had about the
nature of the building regulations that will be introduced, but that
debate is not for this place, but for the National Assembly. That is
why the order is not as serious as the hon. Member for Clwyd, West made
out. There may well be severe implications, but the debate must take
place in the National Assembly. It is appropriate for Welsh Ministers
to decide on the regulations. That is an important point of principle.
We are transferring powers that will be of use now and in the future.
The Assembly Government have a clear policy objective, but attention
should be paid to the precise regulations that
arise. It
is eminently sensible that there be two building regulation regimes. On
that basis, there should be a separate Welsh committee. It would not be
appropriate to have an England and Wales committee that reported to the
Department for Communities and Local Government and the Welsh Assembly
on potentially separate policy
issues. Unlike
the Conservative spokesman, my only concern and regret is that the
request for the order was made on 29 November 2007, which is nearly two
years ago. Although I appreciate the cross-departmental nature of the
matter, which requires time for approval and to draft an appropriate
order, I would be grateful if the Minister explained why the process
has taken so long.
My party and
I are pleased that the order has been brought forward and will
support it. Although legitimate concerns have been raised
about its impact, such questions should rightly be discussed in the
Cynulliad, not in this place.
4.54
pm Hywel
Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): My views on this matter are
remarkably similar to those of the hon. Member for Ceredigion. My party
supports the second, tidying-up
order. On
the transfer of functions order, I hardly need say that housing
improvements to existing stock and the standard of new stock are
pressing matters in Wales. We have historically poor housing stock,
with lots of pre-1919 houses, particularly in rural areas and the
valleys. I am confident that the Welsh Assembly Government are
addressing those issues to the extent that their powers
allow. The
order addresses a need that has been identified for some time. As the
hon. Member for Ceredigion noted, there has been a long-standing
suggestion—it was made on 29 November 2007—that the
powers should be transferred. I should like to ask the Minister whether
the 23 months that have elapsed are a normal delay because the wheels
grind slowly? If so, there are people in Wales who are disappointed by
the speed of the wheels. If not, is it an abnormal delay in some way?
Given the comments of the hon. Member for Clwyd, West, has the Wales
Office had representations from the construction industry specifically
on that point and did that lead to an undue
delay? The
intention of the transfer is specifically related to energy efficiency.
As has been noted already, the targets of the Welsh Assembly Government
are very ambitious, and I support them
entirely. I
have two final points. My first relates to what the hon. Member for
Clwyd, West said. It seems that the CBI is always in favour of
devolution, but not on this particular point. It knows precisely what
the opinion of the people of Wales is, which is that they support the
devolution settlement and want to see it progressing further. The CBI
would not defuse devolution, but there is always a caveat on this
particular point or that particular point or an issue that can
wait.
My second
point is the one that the hon. Member for Ceredigion made: the CBI and
others have a legitimate concern. I am glad that they are interested in
the workings of the Welsh Assembly Government, but such representations
should be made to the Welsh Assembly Government themselves, and I look
forward to
that. 4.57
pm
Mr.
David: I thank hon. Members for their contributions. If
the hon. Member for Clwyd, West does not mind, I will come to his
specific points last.
Let me deal
with the comments made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion. I absolutely
agree that we require a holistic approach. The transfer order
essentially brings us into line with what is happening with planning
and makes it possible for the Assembly to have a rounded holistic
approach, taking into account all the necessary considerations. He
asked about the reason for the relatively long time it has taken to
introduce the regulations. I do not think that anyone is to blame. It
is because the issues are complex—the interface of a large
number of Departments is quite complex. To ensure that we keep within
the spirit of the devolution settlement, we have everything as
fine-tuned as possible. It has been
necessary to have a fairly time-consuming, but complete consultation
with all the relevant central Government Departments. That has taken
place, and the conclusion is to our satisfaction. As I have said
before, it is far better to take a bit of extra time to ensure that we
get it right rather than rushing things and running the risk of getting
it wrong. I think that that answers in large part the comment
of the hon. Member for Caernarfon as
well. It is not
the position of the Wales Office to receive specific representations
from stakeholders—that is the responsibility of the Welsh
Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government. They have made the
suggestion, and we are responding to the request, ensuring that the
Wales Office fulfils its role as the interface between central
Government and the Welsh Assembly Government.
Let me
specifically address the very important points of the hon. Member for
Clwyd, West. Over the past couple of days, concern has been expressed
by CBI Wales in particular, and it is important to highlight several
essential facts. First, the implementation date is at the very end of
December 2011. We are not talking about implementation next week, next
month or even next year, but about quite a long time—between now
and 31 December 2011. That is very important. I take on board the hon.
Gentleman’s concern about our still being in a recession.
Hopefully, by that time we will be well out of it. It is important that
we use effectively the period between the agreement of Parliament to
the transfer and its enactment date to ensure that there is full
consultation with industry, and it is important that we get the
phase-in structure
correct. In
fairness, there has been general engagement with people in Wales about
the importance of the building regulations in addressing the climate
change agenda. The debate has taken place, and many people contributed
to it. The next stage, if the orders are enacted, is specific
consultation on policy matters, and, as the hon. Member for Caernarfon
said, it is the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government to
conduct it. Only this morning, I spoke to Jane Davidson, the Assembly
Minister responsible, and yet again she gave an emphatic, unequivocal,
cast-iron commitment that that kind of detailed consultation will take
place with all stakeholders in Wales, including
industry.
Mr.
Jones: Will the Minister confirm that it is the Welsh
Assembly Government’s intention to seek to achieve zero-carbon
housing some five years before the rest of the
country?
Mr.
David: The hon. Gentleman refers to a political aspiration
that was articulated by the Welsh Assembly Government in 2007. It is
important to recognise that that objective will not be realised by
2011. I believe that that is widely accepted—it is common sense.
However, having such an ambitious target has been effective in
concentrating minds and providing the spur, or the stimulus, to get us
where we are today. It is important to bear that in mind. We cannot
simply look back abstractly at political aspirations that were
articulated several years ago. We have to examine the situation as it
exists. I
wish to reinforce my point about meaningful consultation. I have
absolutely no doubt that detailed consultation will take place with the
CBI and other representatives of industry, but it will happen when
the
Assembly is in the process of formulating its policies as a result of
the orders. With that assurance, I hope that the Committee will feel
able to pass the
orders. Question
put and agreed to.
Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of
Functions) (No.2) Order 2009.
Draft
Government of Wales Act 2006 (Consequential Modifications, Transitional
Provisions and Savings) Order
2009Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the draft Government of Wales Act 2006
(Consequential Modifications, Transitional Provisions and Savings)
Order 2009.—(Mr.
David.) 5.3
pm Committee
rose.
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