The Chairman: May I remind Members about the timing of the debate? We have from now until 11.25 am. We will meet again at 2 pm, and the debate can continue until 4 pm.

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy): I beg to move,

It is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Caton. Last month, Her Majesty announced the Government’s legislative programme for the fourth Session. I would have liked to address the Committee before now, but as members of the Committee know, a combination of the pre-Budget report and the Christmas recess has meant that this is our earliest opportunity to debate the Queen’s Speech.

There are 15 Bills in the fourth Session. Through a combination of Bills with framework powers, Bills with specific Welsh provisions and Bills that legislate on a UK or an England and Wales basis, we are tackling issues that matter, in a way that is responsive to the needs both of the people of Wales and of our constituents. The programme demonstrates our determination to equip people and businesses to deal with the economic challenges that they face, while ensuring that we have a society that has the concept of fairness at its heart.

Taken together, the Government’s economic measures and legislative programme represent decisive action to help families and businesses through the global downturn. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, the Government simply cannot walk by on the other side when decent, hard-working people are facing tough times.

Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Does the Secretary of State share my bewilderment that although, as recently as April last year, the top five banks were recording record profits of £34 billion, which is £70,000 a minute, they are unprepared, unwilling and—I do not necessarily believe this—unable to lend to small businesses in my constituency, while taxpayers in both Wales and Shropshire have been willing to lend to those banks?

Mr. Murphy: Yes, I do share the hon. Gentleman’s bewilderment and frustration. I also share the anger of Welsh people about what has happened. I have not seen—certainly not in my political lifetime or before—anything quite like the current situation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the President of the United States of America referred to the very same problem in his inauguration address yesterday. That problem affects, and started in, the US, but it is of huge significance to us as well. I think that all Members of this House—certainly of this Committee—are united in the way they feel about how the people of Wales have suffered as a consequence of the action of banks over recent years.

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): Many of our local authorities and some of our higher education institutions have suffered at the hands of the Icelandic banks. Following our previous debate, does the Secretary of State have an update on how those authorities and institutions will get that money back? There is still considerable concern about the fact that some very important and very fragile local authorities have lost funds.

Mr. Murphy: The hon. Lady is right in pointing out that the problems originated with Icelandic banks. The issue is still under negotiation, and I will be talking to the Welsh Local Government Association and others in the weeks ahead. I will ensure that she is informed of the progress of the negotiations.

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): On the point regarding businesses in Wales, the Secretary of State will be aware that one of the most important employers—certainly in mid-Wales and in my constituency—is small businesses. Is he aware that many of those businesses, which have invested prudently and have sensible business plans that require funding, are nevertheless being penalised by banks, which are now trying to rein in overdrafts? The act of reining in those overdrafts threatens to close otherwise viable small businesses. Will he help me take to action against those banks that are intransigent and threaten otherwise viable businesses in Montgomeryshire?

Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman makes a very valid point, which is, of course, made by Members across Wales. I and Lord Mandelson met the Federation of Small Businesses last week to talk about that and other issues. The extraordinary proposals and recommendations announced by the Government over the past few days that seek to ensure that banks do their job of lending and providing liquidity for the business sector, particularly affect small and medium-sized companies in Wales, which are a huge source of employment, not just in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency but throughout Wales, and he will be meeting me in a week or two to discuss these issues.

Mr. Don Touhig (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) rose—

The Chairman: Order. I am going to allow this to continue a little longer, but we are talking about the general economic situation rather than the legislative programme. I would like to get back to discussing the legislative programme as soon as possible.

Mr. Touhig: There is much in the legislative programme that will help in these difficult times. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in recent years the banks have demonstrated not only the unacceptable face of capitalism, but the unacceptable face of greed? The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire is right that they are starving businesses of badly needed cash. At our last meeting, we raised the issue of whether the Government would be prepared to take the banks into full public ownership if they do not respond now to the huge injection of public money and relieve the pressure on desperate businesses and families. Will the Government seriously consider taking the banks into full public ownership and locking the bankers up in the Tower?

Mr. Murphy: I fear that I can only note both proposals.

Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): Will my right hon. Friend note the relevance to the legislative programme of today’s announcement of the merger between Co-operative Financial Services and Britannia building society? Will he ensure that he and his Cabinet colleagues note the strength of the co-operative and mutual sector? It has not exhibited the greed, and therefore the weaknesses, that have been demonstrated by what have always been regarded as more mainstream banking institutions.

Mr. Murphy: I was about to refer to the Banking Bill, so I hope that it will be in order, Mr. Caton, to reply to my right hon. Friend with regard to the Co-operative bank. I declare an interest as a customer of that bank for more than 40 years, but I take his point that it has made very sensible decisions over the years, and the decision today is a good one for its customers and for both institutions.

Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Following the comment made by the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham, I should point out that there is nothing in the legislative proposals regarding the management of Treasury funds held by local authorities in Wales. This is a hugely complex business. Would there be an advantage in the surplus funds held by local authorities being managed more centrally so that authorities could have better access to advice on those matters, rather than having 22 individual authorities trying to manage their funds independently and separately?

Mr. Murphy: We would be in deep water if we took away the independence of local authorities in managing their own financial affairs, but there is a lot of merit in learning from good practice and giving good advice to local authorities. That advice should be supplied centrally by, in this case, the Welsh Assembly Government. I hope that we learn lessons from mistakes in the past and that prudence in handling what is, after all, our money as council tax payers is the order of the day. I very much take into account what the hon. Gentleman has said.

I mentioned the Banking Bill, which deals with banks getting into difficulties and with improving protection for customers; there is also the Saving Gateway Accounts Bill, from which nearly 440,000 people on lower incomes in Wales will benefit. Furthermore, the welfare reform Bill will improve support and incentives for people to move from benefits into work and give greater choice to disabled people, so that nobody is written off on long-term benefits. We are working with the Welsh Assembly Government on this to improve skills training, and drug rehabilitation as well.

The equality Bill will promote fairness and equality of opportunity, tackle disadvantage and discrimination, and modernise and strengthen the law to make it fit for the challenges that our society faces today and in the future.

The child poverty Bill will enshrine in law the Government’s commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020. It will help to ensure a continuing focus right across Government, both in Cardiff and here in Whitehall, on ending child poverty for the long term, and we are working with the Welsh Assembly Government very closely on that.

The Policing and Crime Bill, which was given its Second Reading in the House on Monday, protects the public and increases the police’s accountability and effectiveness.

Two Bills contain framework powers for the Welsh Assembly. The first is the Marine and Coastal Access Bill, which will establish Welsh Ministers as the marine planning authority for the offshore region adjacent to Wales. It will create a Welsh fisheries zone and will give the Assembly the power to legislate for a coastal path around our Welsh coast.

Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): Can the Secretary of State tell us when the extent of the Welsh zone will be finalised, because at the moment the Bill provides for it to be the subject of an order at a later date? I see that he chaired the Joint Committee that discussed the issues. Are we to infer that there is disagreement about the extent of the Welsh zone?