Mr.
David Jones: The Secretary of State is right that, on
occasion, it is important that this Committee consider matters of
significance to Wales, such as the draft LCO. Given that there are
likely to be very substantial changes to its form, does he agree that
this Committee is sitting prematurely and should rather consider the
substantive draft LCO once it has been
produced?
Mr.
Hain: No, I do not. I am anxious that there should be
proper parliamentary scrutiny, and I agree with what was said earlier
about Parliament not being merely a rubber stamp for legislative
competence orders or anything else, contrary to some criticisms from up
the M4 in Wales. It is also important that we recognise the imperative
from the Welsh Assembly Government that the Welsh language order be
enacted as soon as possible, so that the Assembly can begin the task of
legislating to bring it into effect, as it wishes to do by the time of
the next Assembly elections in 2011. The timetable is quite tight, and
I have sought to balance the proper scrutiny role of the Committee,
which is an invaluable and important part of the process, with ensuring
that the process is not
delayed.
Alun
Michael: I am a bit surprised by the attempts of
Conservative Front Benchers to delay the debate. Is it not a strength
that we have the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report, as well as
the report of the Assembly Committee? We also have my right hon.
Friend’s response to that report. We can therefore have an open
debate that could influence how the order is drafted and how he
introduces it. I should have thought that that was precisely what the
Welsh Grand Committee was
for.
Mr.
Hain: Absolutely. I could not have put it better
myself.
Albert
Owen: I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member
for Cardiff, South and Penarth. My hon. Friend the Member for
Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire, as a Wales Office Minister,
and my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen, then Secretary of
State, said that the Welsh Grand Committee would be convened so that we
could have a broad debate in which all Welsh Members could participate,
and that there would be a debate in the House and indeed in the
country.
Mr.
Hain: Indeed. I agree
completely.
Mrs.
Gillan: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving
way, because these crude attempts to paint Tory Front Benchers as
having adopted some sort of delaying tactic will not work. In his
letter, he says:
“I
look forward to debating the Order at the forthcoming Welsh Grand
Committee on 14
October.” Will
he confirm that that order is not available for
debate?
Mr.
Hain: I have addressed this matter before, when the hon.
Lady sought to delay the Committee’s proceedings with a spurious
point of order.
Mrs.
Gillan: On a point of order, Mr. Jones. The
Committee is sitting all day, and no such attempt is being made by
Conservative Front Benchers. Can you advise me as to how we can prevent
the Labour party from spreading inaccuracies during a
debate— [Interruption.] No, not at all. It is such a crude
piece of politics, it is rather a
shame—
The
Chairman: Order. As I am sure the hon. Lady well knows,
she is not raising a point of order. The fact is that points will be
made during debates, and it would not be for the first time if untruths
were said across the Floor, even if not in what is considered
unparliamentary language in the House of
Commons.
Mr.
Hain: I do not want to provoke the hon. Lady.
[ Hon. Members: “Go on!”] My hon.
Friends want me to do so. It is a shame: if she aspires to the position
of Secretary of State for Wales, she should say something about
substance rather than talk about procedure the whole time.
Today’s
debate is part of the scrutiny process that we are all undertaking. In
view of the importance of this matter—it is the most important
and potentially sensitive of all the LCOs that have come before
Parliament—I have also requested time for the draft order to be
debated by all Members on the Floor of the House. I hope that will
happen well before the end of the year. It is only right that all
Members can have a say on the order, so that Parliament and the people
of Wales as a whole can be assured that its scope and content have been
fully scrutinised, and so that no critics can complain that such an
important order has not been given due consideration. Given the
sensitivity of the subject and its importance to Wales, it is very
important that that procedure is
followed.
Lembit
Öpik: I, for one, do feel that this process is
ensuring that the matter is given appropriate scrutiny, given how
important it is, particularly to small business in my constituency,
which want to be reassured that we have analysed the arrangements. Many
of us were concerned about the LCO process when we debated it a couple
of years ago, so will he reinforce for the record his belief that what
we are doing now sets an important precedent in ensuring that we may
have similarly important legislation in future? It would be assumed
that whatever colour the Government, the House has the right to make
the sort of input that we are making today. Nobody should think less of
the importance of dealing with such issues correctly while not
obfuscating the process of passing
LCOs.
Mr.
Hain: I agree, but such issues should not always be dealt
with by convening a Welsh Grand Committee and tabling an order on the
Floor of the House, as I intend to do. Issues should be dealt with in a
proportionate way according to the sensitivities involved. All the LCOs
are important, and I think we all agree that the one under discussion
is especially important to enable everybody to have a say. As my right
hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth and my hon.
Friend the Member for Aberavon have stressed, the more consensus we can
achieve on furthering the Welsh language, the better for the language
and for Wales. That is why I have proceeded in this way. However, many
LCOs are better
handled by the scrutiny process that has been used until now, in which
the Welsh Affairs Committee works in tandem with the Assembly without
the need for the Welsh Grand Committee. We will consider every subject
as we go
along.
Hywel
Williams: Will the referral of the LCO to the Floor of the
House have any effect on its progress towards the Privy Council and
then
onwards?
Mr.
Hain: No, it will not, provided that we are able to get
the LCO through the House, as I am confident that we will, particularly
given the excellent work that has been done over the past few weeks.
The LCO can comfortably meet the timetable that both the First Minister
and the Minister for Heritage have expressed an ambition to meet. All
interests will therefore be
satisfied. The
Government’s approach to the LCO is informed by four key
principles. The first is that it is logical and appropriate for the
National Assembly for Wales, in principle, to be able to legislate on
the Welsh language. The nation’s legislature is surely the
natural home for making laws in relation to the language, providing the
most suitable economic, social and political context in which to
legislate. The order provides the opportunity to make the future
development of the language more democratic by making Wales’s
legislature responsible for legislating on the Welsh language, and the
Welsh Affairs Committee noted the broad support for that principle in
its
inquiry. Secondly,
the order builds on the firm foundations of the Welsh Language Act 1993
for which Lord Roberts of Conwy deserves so much praise. That landmark
legislation ensured that organisations providing services of a public
nature implement schemes for carrying out some or all of their business
in Welsh. Those requirements now need updating to better fit the times,
but the 1993 Act provides a sound basis for the LCO’s
focus on the key public services provided by public authorities and
private
companies. Mrs.
Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): How might the
draft order affect telecommunications companies that have a UK-wide
brief, particularly mobile phone operators such as Virgin, which has a
large call centre in my
constituency?
Mr.
Hain: I will come to that. I am glad that my hon. Friend
has raised it because there was, understandably, much concern among
mobile phone operators about any burdens placed upon them. From the
point of view of Welsh mobile phone users, we want maximum competition;
we do not want to bar entry to a new mobile phone operator offering a
better service at a cheaper price. That is one of the reasons, as I
will explain later, that we were persuaded by the Welsh Affairs
Committee’s novel and ingenious suggestion in the requirement to
be proportionate and reasonable about how duties are imposed. That will
solve the problem that existed in the original draft of the LCO and
will give protection to mobile phone operators who raised concerns with
us and the Assembly. It had become quite a big issue and one of the
biggest problems with the original draft.
I make one
final point to my hon. Friend before moving on, which is that, equally,
British Telecom especially said that it wanted a level playing field
for telecommunications. The technology is increasingly blurred between
mobile and fixed telephones. BT did not want a competitive barrier to
be put in place against fixed-line operators compared with mobile phone
operators. That is why the solution that we have come up with meets
such
concerns. Thirdly,
taking forward the order, we need to strike the right balance between
the interests of those who use Welsh as their mother tongue and wish to
conduct their day-to-day business in the language, and the large
majority of people in Wales who do not speak Welsh. I want to build a
broad, common-sense consensus in favour of the proposals, answering
concerns at the same time as meeting the pressures for
change. The
final principle is that any duties—I mentioned this a moment or
two ago, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon—should be
applied in a reasonable and proportionate way. The Committee is right
to highlight the need for Assembly Measures on the language to be
reasonable and proportionate. The Committee made some specific
recommendations to which I shall turn in a moment. Ensuring that duties
are applied reasonably and proportionately is particularly important in
the context of business and enterprise. No one would want to see the
private sector discouraged from investing in Wales because of
burdensome Welsh-language duties being inappropriately imposed on
business. I do not believe that there is a “one size fits
all” solution for delivering services in Welsh. For example,
what is right in respect of a large public authority need not
necessarily be right for a smaller, private-sector company. What is
right for Meirionnydd may not be right for Monmouthshire. I know that
the Welsh Assembly Government will want to consult closely with all
stakeholders, including business, in developing its proposals for
Measures. Close consultation with those who will be affected will be
vital in building a further consensus around any proposed
Measure.
Mr.
David Jones: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for
giving way again. He is right that any Measures should be reasonable
and proportionate. Who, or what body, does he envisage being
responsible for determining the reasonableness or proportionality of
any
proposal?
Mr.
Hain: I am grateful for the role that the hon. Gentleman
played as a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee in improving the
original draft
LCO. What
is envisaged, although the matter is for the Assembly, is a challenge
mechanism, for which the Assembly would legislate in the Measure. That
mechanism would provide a court of appeal for anyone who felt that a
duty was being imposed as a result of the LCO—either how the LCO
was drafted and applied to them, or how it was being implemented. The
matter is entirely one for the Assembly, but I do not think that anyone
is envisaging a huge legal construct. Ultimately, if someone felt hard
done by, any provision could be judicially
reviewed.
Lembit
Öpik: The right hon. Gentleman raises an important
issue. The question that I would add is, to what extent is he satisfied
that what we are sending to
Wales will provide enough guidance on the discretion required, because
we cannot legislate for every single circumstance, as he rightly
pointed out? What respectful advice would he give to those implementing
the LCO about allowing some flexibility to take account of specific
local circumstances? I know that he is aware of that, but how do we
make sure that we do not accidentally create the unintended consequence
of over-regulating and creating inflexibility that could ultimately be
counter-productive?
Mr.
Hain: In the end, I do not believe that the Welsh Assembly
Government or the Assembly will want to pursue a Measure that becomes
counter-productive, either to an emerging business sector or to a small
charitable organisation—to whichever body may be in view. There
is no argument about that. Indeed, I was encouraged that, in my
discussions with the First Minister, and in those that he had with my
hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales before me—my
right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen also pioneered the approach
that I have been able to build upon—there was no argument that
anybody at the Cardiff end wanted to impose duties in a haphazard or
burdensome way, and that is not envisaged anyway. I stress that we are
transferring a power. It is for the Assembly to handle that power and
it will want to consult widely as it does
so. Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): The right hon.
Gentleman will recall being a member, as I was, of the Standing
Committee that considered the Welsh Language Act. That worked well and,
as far as I know, did not create any havoc. We have experience in this
field and surely, as he rightly says, we can leave the issue to our
colleagues in the Assembly who have been democratically elected to do
their job. There is a line between scrutiny and interference, but I am
afraid that it is
blurred.
Mr.
Hain: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s
general proposition. I partially accept his point about the line
between scrutiny and interference, but it is proper for Parliament to
legislate, to be clear about that legislation’s intent, scope
and impact and to lay it out in a proper way. We are now in a position
to do that as a result of the Welsh Affairs Committee’s
report. Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): In agreeing with what the
Secretary of State has just said, may I refer him to the evidence that
we received from the Federation of Small Businesses? I reassure my hon.
Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire that, in those discussions, it
transpired that, in terms of the Assembly Minister’s intentions,
the FSB was reassured that the Assembly would be acting in the
proportionate way that we expect.
Mr.
Hain: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point
and I agree with him. I am also grateful to him for the work that he
did on the Welsh Affairs Committee. There is a balance between
furthering and supporting the language, as we all want to do, and
ensuring that that is done in a proportionate way, both for the
majority of Welsh citizens who do not speak Welsh and for the majority
of businesses, especially small businesses as has been mentioned, which
should not be prejudiced in any way about how they proceed with their
activities;
otherwise, Wales would not be able to create the wealth that we need to
deliver the services that we depend
upon. Mr.
Don Touhig (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I strongly believe that
it is perfectly sensible and correct to pass responsibility for
legislating on the Welsh language to the Assembly in Cardiff. However,
I am surprised that the Assembly Commission now seems to suggest that
the one body that is responsible for legislation in Wales will not have
its reports published in the two languages of Wales. That is a matter
for the
Assembly. In
my part of Wales, the language is strongest and embraced most
enthusiastically in education, because people choose to have their
children educated in Welsh. My constituency has an excellent
Welsh-language comprehensive school and two very good Welsh-language
primary schools. Does my right hon. Friend accept that that is the
model that we should persuade our colleagues in Cardiff to embrace? We
should encourage people to use the language rather than legislate them
into using it, because they will not respond otherwise. Education,
where people choose to have their children educated through the medium
of Welsh, is the one area where the language is strong and popular, and
that is where it will
grow.
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