The
Chairman: That is not a point of order. I advise the hon.
Lady to continue her speech.
Mrs.
Gillan: I think it is just as well that the hon. Gentleman
is leaving.
Adam
Price: Charitable and generous-hearted as ever.
Mrs.
Gillan: Actually, I am a charitable and warm-hearted lady.
It is just that the hon. Gentleman does not like the truth when it is
facing him.
Albert
Owen: On military training, I have a large establishment
in my
constituency—
The
Chairman: Order. The hon. Lady should not give way on
points to do with military training.
Albert
Owen: It was about language, Mr.
Jones.
The
Chairman: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can bring that up
later in a speech, if he catches my eye or that of my colleague. We are
debating a report from the Welsh Affairs Committee on a Welsh language
order.
Mrs.
Gillan: Moving on, I should still like clarification about
the role of the language commissioner, as that has yet to be clearly
identified. I should like to know what role the commissioner will have
in relation to English, as that is an important point. Having read all
the documents that we are provided with by the House of Commons Library
and other organisations on what an official language means, one of the
things that jumped out was that we have no official language. Even
English does not have official language status in the United Kingdom.
We need to look at the matter carefully. It is an important area that
needs tidying up from all perspectives.
Hywel
Williams: May I refer the hon. Lady to Sir Wyn
Roberts—I think the statement is attributed to him—who
said that Welsh is an official language and always has
been?
Mrs.
Gillan: I rely on the documentation that I have seen, and
English is not an official language. If the hon. Gentleman would like
to provide me with information showing that English is an official
language, and explain to me what that means, I would be
grateful.
Mr.
Hain: I rely on my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly
to enlighten us further later on. As the hon. Member for Caernarfon
noted, Sir Wyn Roberts did confirm during the passage of the 1993 Act
that both languages already have de facto official status. The proposed
Measure would provide further clarity to the official status of Welsh,
and would enable Welsh speakers to feel greater certainty that their
rights to speak Welsh will be respected.
Mrs.
Gillan: I am grateful for that perfectly sensible
intervention. As I said, these matters need clarifying. They have been
raised outwith the Committee by other people, and they are worth
looking at.
I am pleased
to see that energy generation and transmission are to be excluded.
However, more broadly, as I said earlier, we need to make sure that the
affection for the language that has been built up over years is not
risked by compulsion, particularly on private companies, as I indicated
when I read the extract from the Welsh Language Board
presentation.
Albert
Owen: The hon. Lady talks about the importance of the
Welsh language and communities. Communities on Anglesey, especially
around the RAF base, have a large contingent of English-speaking
people. The language of that base is English for most people, for
instruction and everything else. However, the RAF has a great
relationship and link with the Welsh-language policies of the area,
including in the schools. I think she is raising alarm. Does she not
accept that such military bases can co-exist with Welsh communities? As
a party—the only party in the House—that has given full
commitment to St. Athan, we are in a position to speak from experience
and our
policies.
Mrs.
Gillan: The hon. Gentleman speaks passionately about his
constituency. May I set his mind at rest? I am not approaching the
matter with any scaremongering
tactics.
Albert
Owen: The hon. Lady was making a political
point.
Mrs.
Gillan: Well, Labour is in coalition with Plaid
Cymru—although their policies are hardly consistent, even on
nuclear power in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I am seeking
clarification because it is important to discuss such matters. We do
not push them under the carpet. I am not asking in a challenging way. I
hope that my tone of voice in the debate has shown me to be perfectly
reasonable. I am trying to raise matters that ought to be of concern to
the hon. Gentleman. Please do not accuse me of scaremongering, because
that is not the spirit in which I have been addressing the Committee or
making my
points. Mr.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Will the
hon. Lady give way?
Mrs.
Gillan: I have given way too
much.
Mr.
Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. She
makes a practical point. Would she not agree that the concept of
reasonableness that will be included could be applied to the situation
that she is talking
about?
Mrs.
Gillan: I am not going into those realms. The concept of
reasonableness may be an area that we need to return to when we see the
draft order. We need to see the draft order, and there is to be a
revised order. However, I am willing to return to the matter in debate,
if I get an opportunity, on the Floor of the House, when we have seen
how the order is
framed. I
shall bring my remarks to a close, because I know that there is a lot
of interest and I do not want to hog the limelight. As the Secretary of
State knows, I believe that Parliament and the Government should have a
close working relationship with the Welsh Assembly Government. In
making the legislative system work, we should be certain that we do not
sacrifice for political expediency and a political timetable an
important piece of legislation. The negotiations have been long-winded,
and even the Secretary of State and the debate’s opening
speaker, the hon. Member for Aberavon, have confirmed that the passage
of the order has not been easy thus far. If we did not accept that and
admit it across the parties, we would be doing a great disservice to
the Welsh
people. I
look forward to receiving the draft order, when we can study it in
detail. None of us has seen how it stands. We in this place should not
be in the business of just rubber-stamping whatever request comes from
the Assembly. If we get into that mindset, we shall damage Parliament
irrevocably. I do not want to see that happen. What we should see now
is a timetable, driven by proper scrutiny. The subject is too important
to be a political pawn. I shall scrutinise the order carefully and in
good faith when it arrives, in the best interests not only of
the Welsh language but of the people of Wales and of the United
Kingdom. 11.19
am
Hywel
Williams: I should like to start by looking briefly at the
broad issue. The use of the Welsh language in Wales is contested; I
think that that is just stating the obvious. I think that I also agree
with the hon. Member for Monmouth, perhaps to his surprise. The Welsh
language is a contested issue.
I also want,
however, to step back for a moment and think about the changes—
the very welcome cumulative changes—that we have seen over the
years. Perhaps we should consider for a moment why one of the two
languages that are widely and increasingly spoken throughout our
country should be so contested and why, indeed, has there been some
limited and welcome change.
I do not
think that there is any absolute reason why the two languages should
not be used widely. A degree of multilingualism is a fact of life in
the majority of countries in the world; most countries are multilingual
to varying degrees. So why has Welsh been contested to
varying degrees? In fact, it has been contested to varying degrees over
many centuries, which I will refer to later in my remarks. Clearly,
this is not a matter of necessity but of choice. Therefore, we are
clearly engaging in a process, and it is a political process if not a
party political process. I certainly do not want to see it become a
party political process. The LCO does
not mark the end of debates on this issue, or the end of possible
conflict over the use of languages in Wales. It goes some way—a
good deal of the way, in fact—to achieving the
historic aim of emancipation of the Welsh language, something that
there has been a struggle to achieve for more than four centuries. As
such, I want to say that I clearly welcome the LCO as a significant
next step. I also want to say right at the start that I pay tribute to
the other members of the Welsh Affairs Committee, which looked at this
LCO quickly, in depth and in detail. It is a tribute to the Committee
that we started out with a certain view and we developed our views as
we went along. I was very glad to take a part in that
process.
Irrespective
of some of the remarks that we have heard this morning, we seem to have
reached some sort of consensus that there is a need to update the
current legislative framework with respect to the Welsh language.
Everyone seems to say that responsibility for the Welsh language should
be placed down in Cardiff. It seems that it is only the detail that
needs attention. Regarding the issue of whether or not Cardiff should
have that responsibility, we almost seem to be in the position,
sometimes at least, of saying, “What was the argument about
earlier on?” We seem to have reached a new status quo on that
issue.
David
T.C. Davies: If the hon. Gentleman feels that
responsibilities for language could be devolved downwards, why not
devolve them to local authorities?
Hywel
Williams: That is a very good point indeed. My
party is very much in favour of devolving power as much as possible.
Indeed, if one looks at the actuality of the situation in Wales,
education is delivered by local authorities through the mediums of
Welsh and English, as the right hon. Member for Islwyn—who is no
longer in his place—said in a powerful point. In fact, many
years ago, one of the very first acts that I was involved in as a
community councillor was writing a language policy for Llanysddumdwy
community council: language policy should be applied at all levels. It
was an extremely good policy, by the way; I wrote
it. We
seem to have reached consensus. Before we get too carried away,
however, I want to make the point that there is a process involved and
that it is a matter of contest to some extent. I would point out very
gently that the history of the language emancipation campaign, as I
like to term it, has been one of intense pressure for change and, at
times, of fierce resistance to that change, followed by a breaking-out
of mass consensus, usually on a temporary basis. I do not think that
that is bad; it is part of the process. It is a dynamic model of coming
to a decision, whereby we talk with one another other as Welsh people
and as Welsh politicians. That is to be welcomed, and thus this LCO is
to be welcomed. I would also like to say that the pressure for change
has often been led by pressure groups, who
sometimes— 11.25
am The
Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put (Standing
Order No.
88).
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