Hywel
Williams: I do not want to go over old ground, but what
did the hon. Gentleman make of the Catalan Minister’s statement
that language legislation was not an issue in
Catalonia?
Mr.
David Jones: I make the point that I put to
the Catalan Minister in the evidence session: Catalonia has a
significantly bigger economy than Wales, with about three times the
population.
Alun
Michael: Will the hon. Gentleman give
way?
Mr.
David Jones: Forgive me; I can take only one
at a
time. That
economy is almost self-sufficient. The issue should be addressed by the
Secretary of State, and I hope that he will take it into
account.
Alun
Michael: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving
way. The
strength of the message that I received from listening to the Catalan
Government was the fact that, with the framework of legislation behind
them, they put the effort into building consensus in exactly the way in
which the development of Welsh language education has happened in our
schools in Wales. There is a lesson from our own history, as well as
from Catalan history.
Mr.
David Jones: One would certainly wish to
encourage all suppliers of goods and services operating in Wales, as
far as possible and where prudent, to operate a Welsh language policy.
However, Welsh consumers will not thank the Government if their access
to services is disadvantaged as a consequence of the legislation. I
will leave the point there because there are further points that I wish
to
make. I
am grateful to the Secretary of State for indicating that there will be
an exhaustive list of royal chartered bodies included in the LCO. That
will require close scrutiny. The hon. Member for Caernarfon gave us an
amusing list of bodies that will be excluded, but some major bodies
might have difficulty complying with Welsh language legislation. A lot
of the bodies provide valuable public services. One would not wish the
legislation to result in certain bodies not being prepared to
operate in Wales.
Another point
raised by the Select Committee—it did not appear to have been
addressed by the Secretary of State in his letter of
response—was the issue of professional bodies. The Select
Committee expressed concern about whether it was right that all
professional bodies operating in Wales should require a Welsh language
policy. I would be grateful if the Under-Secretary would address that
matter in his
response. The
Select Committee’s work in connection with the LCO process over
the past two years has been extremely valuable. We have gone through a
learning process. We have achieved an efficient process that has
resulted in prospective legislation being scrutinised efficiently and
expeditiously. It is a tribute to the work of the Select Committee, as
its Chairman, the hon. Member for Aberavon, pointed out, that the
report on the LCO was produced with absolutely unanimity. The
gainsayers doubted that that would ever happen, but it
did. We
need to scrutinise the LCO further, however, and I again ask the
Secretary of State to consider the contents of paragraph 12 of our
report, in which we indicated that if there are likely to be
significant amendments to the draft LCO—which clearly there will
be—we will want to revisit the draft and report further. I have
no doubt that that process will be completed expeditiously under the
chairmanship of the hon. Member for Aberavon. Nevertheless, if there
are significant changes, I believe that it is right—and the
Committee believes that it is right—that we should scrutinise
further.
Mr.
Hain: I do not want to encourage the hon.
Gentleman’s belief that there will be an opportunity for further
scrutiny because I do not want to mislead the Committee about that.
There is a timetable for proceeding that we want to stick to. We have
responded almost completely, in almost every particular, to the
recommendations of the Committee and I think that is
sufficient. Mr.
David Jones: I have no doubt that the Select
Committee will review the amended draft LCO when it is produced.
Notwithstanding what the Secretary of State says, I have no doubt that
if the Select Committee considers it appropriate, it will ask for the
opportunity for further scrutiny. I understand that he is concerned
about adhering to a timetable, but I nevertheless echo what my hon.
Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham said: this is legislation,
and it is right that it should be properly scrutinised and that we
should give it all the attention it requires.
To conclude,
I believe that the draft LCO is in considerably better shape than when
it arrived with the Select Committee. That improvement is a vindication
of the Select Committee’s work. Those who doubt the worth and
the use of the Select Committee in scrutinising legislation should have
regard to what we have achieved on this occasion. I am proud to be a
member of that Select Committee and I am proud of this piece of work. I
look forward to the amended draft LCO that will be produced by the
Secretary of State and to giving it further consideration with my
colleagues on the
Committee. 3.42
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne
David): The discussion we have had today has been
extremely worthwhile and of a very high standard. That fact alone shows
the worth of the decision, taken by the Secretary of State, to hold
this Grand Committee today. It has also been very important to
have—not just for the debate today—the debate in
Westminster, Cardiff bay and throughout Wales about the way we move to
enhance the position of the Welsh language in modern life. It is very
important that Members of Parliament have every opportunity to
contribute to that debate, because we represent the people of Wales,
just as Assembly Members do. We are as passionately concerned about the
future of the Welsh language as Members of the Assembly. That
partnership—looking at the best way to take the Welsh language
forward together—is testament to the fact that the LCO process
is working well.
It is also
important to have had the debate because, as a number of Members
stated, it is extremely important that we do everything humanly
possible to create consensus in Wales about how we take the Welsh
language forward.
When I was in
my teens and twenties, the debate in Wales about the future of the
Welsh language was, to put it mildly, not as positive as it might have
been. The Welsh language was perceived as a divisive issue in Wales.
That is behind us. There is growing acceptance that the language
belongs to all the Welsh people. For example, I am a monoglot English
speaker but I am proud of the Welsh language as the language of my
country. We need to ensure that that attitude is shared by all
the people of Wales. It is about the Welsh language as a positive base
to embrace, expand and take forward. That point was made
articulately by my
right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth, and I pay
particular tribute to his contribution to the ongoing debate. The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made the point that we need to strive
to ensure that this is not an issue that divides Welsh people, but
unites them. There is a great deal of unanimity on that
approach. Consultation
is vital if a true consensus is to be constructed. In that respect, I
would like to mention, in particular, my right hon. Friend the Member
for Torfaen and his decision, when Secretary of State for Wales, to
ensure that there was as broad and intense a consultation in Wales as
possible. That helped to lay the foundations for the great progress
that has taken us to where we are
today. The
legislative competence order that emerges from the process will be, as
a consequence of the debate and consensus that has been created, far
stronger and more coherent, acceptable and dynamic than many people
initially thought possible. We also have to recognise that the Welsh
Affairs Committee has made a distinct and vital contribution to that
process. Several extremely positive suggestions have been made, in
particular the concepts of reasonableness and proportionality, and it
is widely accepted that the legislative competence order will be that
much stronger because of the introduction of those concepts.
As we come to
the end of the process, we should take stock and realise where we are,
with regard to the acceptance of the progress that has been made. It is
true that concern has been expressed by the business community in Wales
about how the LCO was developing, but it is extremely significant that
the CBI has issued a statement warmly welcoming the changes to the
Welsh language LCO, stating
that “it
is significant that this has now been written onto the face of the
LCO.” Equally,
concern has been expressed with regard to telecommunications. My right
hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen made particular mention of that. It
is important to note that the Mobile Broadband Group has issued a note
to MPs stating that it welcomes the Welsh Affairs Committee’s
report and the fact that the Secretary of State has indicated that the
duties of reasonableness and proportionality will be included, along
with an appeals process. Of course, there are issues that still need to
be addressed, as far as the business community is concerned, and
problems with telecommunications that need to be overcome, but it is
important to recognise that the debate between us, the Wales Office and
the Welsh Assembly Government has been extremely positive. I believe
that when we come to the Measure stage many of the concerns that have
been highlighted consistently by Members and by the business community
will be firmly taken into account by the Welsh Assembly
Government. Consumer
Focus Wales is another an organisation that has welcomed the progress
that has been achieved. It issued a statement urging MPs to support the
LCO and use our influence to ensure that it is as broad as possible,
within certain parameters, to allow the Assembly to legislate as
appropriate.
Several
Members raised specific points during the debate. For example,
reference was made to the Welsh language commissioner, but I think that
it is right, as
the Welsh Affairs Committee has said consistently, that we do not allow
ourselves to be drawn into prejudging what the Welsh Assembly
Government may decide to propose on the basis of the LCO. It is for
them to decide the parameters and the specificity of what the
commissioner will do. The hon.
Member for Chesham and Amersham asked several questions in her
contribution at the start of the debate. She questioned the logic of
having a £400,000 threshold, rather than a £200,000
one—a point that several Members made. It was one of the issues
raised with me when I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee.
After careful consideration, it is necessary in my view to ensure that
a clear boundary is set, to define what is substantial public funding.
That cannot be left as a nebulous, vague concept. There has to be some
sort of limit. I believe that the increase in the threshold from
£200,000 to £400,000 is important because it will ensure
that key organisations of a national character, such as the National
Botanic Garden, will definitely come into scope, but that local,
voluntary, charitable and sporting bodies will not. That is a
reasonable figure, about which a lot of discussion has taken
place. Another
issue raised by several hon. Members, particularly my right hon. Friend
the Member for Torfaen, is the suggestion that buses should be
included. It is important to recognise that that is one of the
suggestions made by the Welsh Affairs Committee, which pointed out that
there was perhaps an inconsistency: although we are talking about
trains, we are not talking about buses. We need some sort of uniformity
in our approach. However, it is also important, as the Secretary of
State said, to emphasise that we are not talking about a “one
size fits all” approach. If we consider the particularities of
what might happen in terms of the Measure, it might be reasonable for
the Welsh Assembly Government to come forward with proposals for Welsh
to be used on bus stop signs, particularly in Welsh-speaking areas.
That seems entirely
reasonable.
Mr.
Llwyd: I agree entirely with what the Under-Secretary is
saying—clearly, one size will not fit all. The Secretary of
State said earlier that what might be good for Monmouth would not
necessarily be good for Meirionnydd. I do not know whether the
Under-Secretary—I am bolstering his case—knows that in
Shrewsbury railway station the signage is bilingual at all times, and I
do not see any panic
there.
Mr.
David: Yes, well, we do not want to get into an historical
debate about the Act of Union 1536—which was mentioned
earlier—the Marches, Wales and so on. The good thing about our
discussion is that we are not talking about imposing measures on people
who do not want to see their local communities threatened in any way.
However, we want new opportunities to be created for the acceptance and
the use of the Welsh language, which is the correct frame of mind in
which to approach the
issue.
Dr.
Francis: Before we lose sight of buses, as it were, I am
sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that the former
Transport and General Workers Union, now Unite, had a project funded by
the Welsh Union Learning
Fund to provide Welsh-learning opportunities for non-Welsh speakers in
north Wales among bus drivers and others working on
buses.
Mr.
David: I think that that was a positive and important
development.
Mr.
Murphy: Is it not also the case that it would be nonsense
to teach Welsh to non-Welsh speakers in Blaenavon—to bus
drivers, I
mean?
Mr.
David: I do not think that anyone would suggest that bus
drivers in Blaenavon would be forced to learn Welsh. However, one of
the things that we are seeing is that more and more people are learning
Welsh. That is to be encouraged. I believe that the LCO will make a
contribution towards the willingness of more and more people in Wales
to embrace the Welsh language—including bus drivers in
Blaenavon.
Paul
Flynn: There was a great deal of attention given to one
problem that occurred with Welsh-language announcements on Newport
station. Sadly, it involved Matthew Parris, who wrote about it in
The Times. Matthew Parris had planned a journey that meant his
connection leaving Newport a minute after his train from Paddington
arrived. Not surprisingly, he missed his connection. Instead of blaming
his abysmal journey planning, he blamed the Welsh-language
announcement, which was a bit
unreasonable.
Mr.
David: Yes, I think that was very unreasonable and I am
extremely sorry that Matthew Parris missed his
train. Before
I make some general comments in conclusion, I shall refer to royal
chartered bodies. That is something that the Wales Office has raised
and with which the Welsh Affairs Committee has agreed. I think that the
LCO, when drafted, will not include the named chartered
bodies, but will include classes of body defined by the type of services
provided. That is the best approach to ensuring that we are as
comprehensive and inclusive as
possible. The
Secretary of State has made a firm commitment that he will give further
consideration to the many excellent points made today. They need to be
carefully considered and that will happen. Several other questions have
been asked and, where appropriate, we shall give a comprehensive
written reply. I am delighted that there seems to be a broad measure of
agreement among hon. Members of all parties, including the Conservative
party, although I am not quite sure where the shadow Secretary of State
stands—there seems to be some difference, in emphasis at least,
between the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham and the hon. Member
for Clwyd, West. Nevertheless, I think that we have a degree of unity,
and a consensus has certainly been established by and large between us.
That is extremely
important. My
hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon began the debate, and I want to pay
particular tribute to the huge contribution that he has made, not only
today but as demonstrated in his chairmanship of the Welsh Affairs
Committee. He referred to Iolo Morgannwg, who spent time in my home
village of Cefn Cribwr. Iolo Morgannwg was known as the bard of
liberty, a great supporter of the Welsh language and the Eisteddfod. It
is important for us to recognise not just his historic contribution but
how his spirit is still with us today. I very much hope that the LCO
will be a modest step towards achieving the kind of liberty in Wales
that Iolo Morgannwg dreamed
of. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the matter of the Ninth Report from the
Welsh Affairs Committee, Proposed National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009, HC348, and its
implications for
Wales. 3.57
pm Committee
rose.
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