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Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con):
The Government used migrant workers artificially to boost employment over the past 10 years, when 80 per cent. of new jobs went to foreign workers. Does the Minister for Employment and Welfare Reform now accept that there has been a failure to tackle the skills
problem in this country, and to carry out the necessary welfare reform to make workers in this country best fitted to compete in these more difficult days of recession?
Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): A lot of people take out payment protection insurance during their working life. Do my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench think that it is fair that when those people lose their jobs, payments made under that payment protection insurance scheme are treated as income when they apply for unemployment benefits? If not, will they agree to review the situation?
Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): On this day of extreme cold weather, may I ask when the Government are seriously going to introduce proposals to extend the winter fuel allowance to severely disabled people, including groups of terminally ill people? Such people include my constituent, Matthew Pinder, who today will be sitting at home in his front room with one fire on because his family say that despite whatever the Government have said, they do not have enough money to heat their home.
James Purnell: That is precisely why we increased the Christmas bonus by £60 this yearthat will go to people who are disabled. It is worth saying that there was no winter fuel allowance under the previous Governmentwe introduced it. They used to spend just £60 million a year, whereas we now spend billions on ensuring that people receive help in winter. We do so precisely because we want to ensure that people do not have to choose between heating their home and fending for themselves.
The Minister for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs (Mr. Pat McFadden): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to repeat a statement being made by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform in the other place about the industrial action at the Lindsey refinery and elsewhere in the country.
On Thursday and Friday last week, contract workers at the Lindsey refinery in north Lincolnshire and elsewhere took part in unofficial industrial action. That has been followed today with further such action at Sellafield power station and other sites around the UK. The stated reason for such action is said to be that a contract awarded at the Lindsey site to an Italian contractor, IREM, has resulted in discrimination against British workers through the exclusive employment of Italian and Portuguese workers. On the Lindsey site, the great majority of the workers are British. I understand that all the striking workers are from maintenance or enhancement projects on the sites; and as of this afternoon there is no disruption of production at any of the sites where this unofficial industrial action is taking place.
On Friday, my Department asked ACAS, the independent arbitration service, to meet the employers and the unions to examine the various accusations being aired and to establish the factswe expect its report very quickly. ACAS was in touch with the parties over the weekend and I understand that the first meeting is taking place today. ACASs first responsibility is to report to us on whether laws have been broken; if they have we will take action. We are determined to see robust enforcement of the employment rights legislated for by this Parliament, and the fair and proper application of the European rules that govern the operation of companies throughout the EU and the mobility of labour, which has always been an intrinsic part of membership of the EU and has been supported by successive British Governments.
It has never been, and never will be, the policy of Total to discriminate against British companies or British workers.
Two key accusations have been made in recent days. The first is that the use of labour from overseas leads to an erosion of wages and conditions for all concerned because these workers are paid less than UK workers. The second is that there is discrimination in recruitment practice against British workers. The statement issued by Total last night confirmed that workers from overseas are paid at the same rate as other workers on site, and it further confirmed that Total does not operate any policy of discrimination with regard to tendering or recruitment.
The same rules apply here as with UK companies bidding for work overseas, and I would remind the House that there are some 300,000 UK companies operating elsewhere in Europe. Subcontracts can be bid for by UK or overseas-based companies. Of course, if an overseas company wins a contract it can use its permanent employees to carry out the work, but Total
has confirmed that where new vacancies are advertised, it will work with subcontractors to ensure that UK workers are considered in the same way as anyone else.
The workers coming here from Italy and Portugal are protected by the EU posting of workers directive, which the UK has implemented fully. It guarantees those workers minimum standards, for example on pay and health and safety, and facilitates the free movement of services within the European Uniona vital market for British companies. In the case of the Lindsey refinery, we have been informed that all subcontractors adhere to the national agreement for the engineering construction industry, which governs terms and conditions, working hours and pay.
Membership of the European Union and taking advantage of the opportunities for trade presented by the EU are firmly in the UKs national interest. Free movement of labour and the ability to work across the EU have been a condition of membership for decades. It is important that we respect and guarantee that principle, not least because it guarantees the right of hundreds of thousands of British workers and companies to operate elsewhere in Europe. It illustrates the importance of Europe to the UK that half our £370 billion of exports per year go to the EU, half our £315 billion inward investment comes from the EU and between 3 million and 3.5 million UK jobs are linked both directly and indirectly with our trade with the EU.
At a difficult economic time, we fully understand the anxieties that people have about their jobs. That is why we have been taking the measures that we have to support people through these difficult times. We strongly believe in fair opportunities for everyone in this country and in ensuring that British people have access to advertised job vacancies. It would be quite wrong, and indeed against the law, for companies to advertise vacancies and exclude British people from them. Equally, it would run contrary to the principles of the single market and harm British people working abroad if we were to exclude foreign workers from employment in the UK.
Of course, we understand the concerns of workers at a time of economic difficulty, and we have now established a mechanism through the ACAS process to examine those concerns. It is through that strong and independent process that we should proceed, not through the continuation of the unofficial industrial action that has been taking place. Our aim is to get through the economic difficulties that we face with Britain continuing as a great trading nation, with our companies able to operate worldwide and our workers equipped for the jobs and industries of the future. I commend this statement to the House.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): May I first ask, for the sake of clarification, for reassurance that this is a statement of the whole Government, not just the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, and that the Secretary of State for Health has now recanted and been enlightened, and accepts what has been said? Most importantly, will the Minister confirm with clarity whether the Government believe that the posting of workers directive is satisfactory and working fairly in our interests, or whether they are seeking amendments to it? That has been left quite unclear in all the interviews given by Ministers so far.
Does the Minister accept that all responsible people will agree with him that however aggrieved people feel, industrial action at power stations and oil refineries at the present time of national crisis is not the way to take forward any of their arguments? The unions should help to get people to desist from that. Does he accept also that we do not want to see riots in Italy about British workers there at a time when British companies are seeking contracts on the continent for their British workers to engage in employment there?
However, does the Minister also accept that understandable worries at the present time have been turned into direct action as a result of the Prime Ministers irresponsible use of the phrase British jobs for British workers? Is it not clear that that phrase was populist nonsense at the time when he used itit was part of some curious Britishness agenda, which I seem to recall he was pursuing for reasons of his own at the timethat he was concerned more with his job security than with anybody elses job security in this country, and that we will all welcome the fact if he never repeats it, no Minister ever repeats it and no such irresponsible statements are made by any member of the Government at any time in the future?
Mr. McFadden: I should take this opportunity to welcome the right hon. and learned Gentleman back to the Conservative Front Bench. He brings great experience to his role. I always feel that, particularly when we are discussing issues of European competence, he may have more in common with Labour Members than with some Members behind him, but we will see how the debate develops.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked a couple of specific questions. As I said in the statement, we have fully implemented the posting of workers directive. It has been in place for some years, and as for many such directives, the European Commission has established a group to look at its operation, and we will see if it makes any recommendations.
As for the statements of the Prime Minister to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman referred, never at any time has the Prime Minister said or implied that he or the Government are opposed to the free rights of British companies to operate throughout the European Union or of European companies to operate here in the UK. What the Prime Minister said, quite rightly, was that, as a country, we needed to do more to equip the British work force for the jobs, skills and industries of the future. That is precisely what we are doing. That is why, while apprenticeships declined when the Conservative party was in power, we will grow apprenticeships to some 0.5 million, and we will stand by our commitment to equip British workers for the future.
Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab):
As I am sure the whole House can appreciate, I have spent the past few days taking part in many discussions about the situation affecting the refinery in my constituency. I welcome the promise that ACAS is now to be involved and will be meeting both sides in the dispute to examine the accusations that have been made on both sides. However, does my right hon. Friend appreciate that for skilled engineering and construction workers who are currently out of
work, seeing contracts going elsewhere can be very toxic? What can he say to those people, of whom there are many in my constituency and others, who have such skills and who are out of work? What can be done to assist them to get jobs, which they so desperately want at the moment?
Mr. McFadden: I know that my hon. Friend has been closely engaged with this issue in recent weeks, and that she is doing everything she can to help her constituents in a positive and responsible manner. On future employment, I would say two things to her. The first thing we have to do is maintain our investment in infrastructure, and not cut it, as the Conservatives would, and that means continuing with rebuilding our energy and transport infrastructure, and with other important projects of national significance. The other thing that will support employment for her constituents, and those of all hon. and right hon. Members, is for this country to maintain its positive stance as a positive member of the European Union, to continue to look outwards and trade globally, and, in so doing, to increase wealth for the UK and employment in the UK.
Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): We welcome the statement, but it has been made necessary because of the reaction to the cynical and undeliverable statement by the Prime Minister at the Labour party conference in 2007 that there would be British jobs for British workers. That statement was as misleading as the Prime Ministers other promise to abolish boom and bust. That economic failure caused the understandable anxiety in the country at the moment, with Britain plunging deeper into recession, unemployment soaring and the final hallmark of all Labour Governmentsincreasing industrial unrest.
Pulling up the drawbridge cannot be the right response. British companies and citizens benefit from the free movement of goods and services across the European Union. Does the Minister agree that many in Germany and France who see a falling pound feel it is unfair that British businesses are gaining a competitive advantage as a result of changing exchange rates? I agree with the right hon. Gentleman and accept his comments that all new jobs must be open to all workers and that employment law must be upheld, but does he agree that protectionism, whether it is being advanced by the new President of the United States or by isolationist right-wing commentators in Britain, would be ruinous for our country and must be avoided?
Mr. McFadden: I appreciate the hon. Gentlemans welcome for the statement and his positive comments on Britains role as a member of the European Union. I agree that unofficial industrial action is not the way to resolve the concerns that have been expressed. We have set up a process through ACAS, which will involve the employers and the trade unions, to air the concerns that have been expressed, and as I said, the statement issued last night by the energy company Total addressed some of those concerns.
The hon. Gentleman is right about protectionism. If we look at past history and the economic problems of the last century, we can see that a retreat from looking outwards and a retreat from world trade would indeed mean that protectionism became a sure-fire way of turning recession into depression.
Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend accept that this is not an attack on the mobility of labour in the EU, but an objection to the fact that one contractorthe Italian contractoris bringing in its entire work force of several hundred people for one particular contract? This is a plea: in all the other jobs that will come into being with the contract for the closure and reconstruction of the Lindsey oil refinery, preference should be given to British workers, and to local workers, in an area of high unemployment where the skills are available. As well as sending in ACAS, should not my right hon. Friend be convening a meeting in London of the big oil companies, contractors and unions to allay the workers fears for British jobs and to see that the posting of workers directive is working properly?
Mr. McFadden: As I said, the vast majority of workers on the site are British. It is legal for a European company to contract for work and to say that it will use its permanent employees to carry it out. The issue of discrimination arises if new vacancies are advertised, and the statement issued last night by Total, which runs the site, made it clear that if new vacancies are advertised the company will work with all its subcontractors to make sure that UK workers are considered in the same way as anyone else.
Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Although this dispute relates to the employment of European workers under European law, about which little can be doneat least in the short termdoes the Minister accept that the reason why it has had such tremendous resonance across the country is peoples concern about the huge flux of immigration into the UK in recent years, a large part of it from outside the EU, which has accounted for a majority of the new jobs of people of working age? Last year, the total number of work permits issued was a record, at about four or five times the level when the Government were elected, so can he assure us that from now onwards far fewer work permits will be issued and, in particular, that people for whom no job is immediately available will not be issued with work permits allowing them to come to the UK just looking for jobs as, extraordinarily, the Government now permit?
Mr. McFadden: The issue at the Lindsey oil refinery, of course, involves European workers coming here, as I said, under the rules of labour mobility that have existed for some decades. The right hon. Gentleman asks about non-EU immigration; on that issue, the Home Secretary and my colleagues at the Home Office have set out the new points-based immigration system, which is intended precisely to gear our needs more closely to immigration from outwith the EU. I would also say to the right hon. Gentleman that immigration from outwith the EU has made a tremendous contribution to this country. That is true of my constituency, and I am sure it is true of many others.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Will the Minister use this opportunity to dissociate himself from the remarks made on this mornings Today programme by the Secretary of State, who made what I thought was a rather silly comment implying that the answer to all the workers who are worried because they are not getting these jobs was for them to go off and get a job abroad?
Mr. McFadden: I am afraid that I disagree with my hon. Friend; that is not what the Secretary of State has said. What he said was that the rules of trade across the EU benefit EU companies and British companies and that we, as a positive member of the EU, gain by that, which is why we do not intend to change those rules of open trade. He was certainly not harking back to comments made at another time about people getting on their bikes. That is not what he said or what he meant; it is a distortion of what he said.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): May I congratulate the Minister first on not quite being able to bring himself to defend the Prime Ministers cheap populism, and secondly on rightly expressing the importance of the free movement of workers within the EU, from which this country and British workers have benefited? If he wants to lower the temperature out there in British industry, however, may I commend to him the policy of having an explicit annual limit on work permits issued to those coming in from outside the EU, because that would do a great deal to restore confidence in the fact that our immigration system is actually under control, as opposed to the current feeling in the country that for years it has been out of control?
Mr. McFadden: Once again, the hon. Gentleman tries to tempt me away from the operation of the EU rules, into a general discussion on immigration policy. I am not sure quite what cap or number he wants, but as I said, this Government have set out a points-based immigration system for non-EU immigration, which is aimed precisely at matching our needs to the flow of immigration from beyond the EU.
Mr. Ian McCartney (Makerfield) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend ensure that ACAS talks not just to Total, but to Alstom, the subcontracting company, which subcontracts again to another company? It is that company that is causing the problem; it has a record of trying to breach the national agreement in respect of agency workers. That loophole was closed through the agency workers directive, and it is critical in this situation that ACAS looks into what is happening with Alstom as well as with Total.
In the coming weeks and months, as this is resolved, and there is a procurement process involving millions of public opportunities, a corporate social responsibility clause should be agreed by the Government to ensure that subcontractors as well as main contractors work to the national agreement, and that there is a commitment to creating local jobs and services in these big contracts, so that communities benefit, not just big companies.
Mr. McFadden: My right hon. Friend has tremendous experience in these issues and his words should always be listened to seriously. With regard to ACAS talking to Alstom, I am sure that it will talk to all the major employers in this field that it can. With regard to the national agreement, Alstom has informed us that it abides by the agreement, but that is precisely why we asked ACAS to look at the issue. A number of claims have been aired in the past few days, and it is right to get ACAS to take a dispassionate and impartial look at those claims, so that we can establish the facts.
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