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“Scottish banknotes are every bit as good as those issued by the Bank of England. That’s something everyone working in shops or other parts of the service economy anywhere in the UK should know. Yet Scots often have to endure the indignity of having their money examined by suspicious staff south of the border as if it’s come straight out of a Monopoly box. Some Scottish fivers and tenners are simply refused. Of course, it’s not the end of the world, but it’s hard to think of a clearer demonstration of disrespect.”
He is right. It is time to put an end to this practice, so I commend the Bill to the House.
1.25 pm
Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): You saw me jump up like a sprung coil, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That is because I feel so strongly about the Bill. I support it because, while it has naturally prompted a degree of levity, it deals with a serious issue which, unless addressed with some dispatch by the House, will become a growing problem. But I believe that this issue can be addressed to the satisfaction of every player, reflecting nationhood in relation to the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom. I believe that the Bill can provide security for retailers in particular, while also avoiding embarrassment for the holders of certain banknotes.
I am angry with myself for two reasons: the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), whom I congratulate, has beaten me to it by introducing the Bill; and, had I introduced a comparable Bill, its provisions would have been less narrow. They would not have been confined to Scots banknotes, for reasons that I will share with the House in a few moments.
My interest in the issue relates to one of my earliest memories. When I was a very small child living in Wembley, my grandmother, Catharine, would come down from Scotland. She was a formidable lady, and I am proud to have her genes in me. It could even be said—and I say it in the nicest possible way—that she was quite a cussed woman. On one occasion she produced Scottish banknotes during her journey down to Wembley, only to experience precisely the confrontation that the hon. Gentleman has described, a confrontation that still occurs today.
Angela Eagle: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Andrew Mackinlay: I want to complete this tale, because it is rather important.
My grandmother faced the indignity of eventually finding someone who offered her 19 shillings for the banknote. She wasn’t having that. I recall that the note had a picture of Good King Billy on it. Now, my grandmother really was not one of king Billy’s brethren, if you get my drift. She was amused, subsequently, by the fact that she had stood up for King Billy—William III—in telling the person who did not want to take the note that this was her king and his king, and that it really was outrageous. That story has remained with me for all this time, but it has also been an irritant over my nearly 60 years of life. Now I will give way to the Minister.
Angela Eagle: I thank my hon. Friend. I wonder whether he will tell us which of the genes of that redoubtable woman have survived in him? We could probably guess at a few of them.
Andrew Mackinlay: One of the things that I learned from my grandmother was always to probe and question. Another was that if I saw a door with “Do Not Enter” written on it, I should open it and go through.
This is a continuing problem, and as I said, it is a growing problem. In the old days, there was much less travel than today. Nowadays, for reasons of business and commerce, people commute between Glasgow and London and Edinburgh and London, and between other parts of the United Kingdom. Earlier today the House discussed the problems of small business. This is a problem for small businesses, which are caused a degree of anxiety because although they may know of the existence of other notes circulating in the United Kingdom, they have to give change to people. The hon. Gentleman gave the example of taxi drivers.
I invite the House to try to be a bit less London-centric. The time will come when someone will indeed turn up in Somerset with one of these banknotes. I sympathise both with the person who has the banknote and with the shopkeeper, who really could do without it, and who will have to put the note aside to be taken to the bank rather than given in change. In such circumstances there is embarrassment and irritation— embarrassment for the person who produces the note, which is probably all that he or she has, and has to try to convince the retailer that it is good money with value, and irritation for the retailer.
There is another issue, of which I have been particularly conscious in the past three or four years. A lot of people currently employed in the retail sector come from other parts of the European Union, and they are desperately anxious not to accept a note that is peculiar and bewildering to them, and on which they have not been briefed—so I fully endorse what the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale said about awareness briefing. Such situations can be avoided, as I will illustrate later, but they cause anxiety for employees from overseas—particularly those who work in restaurants and petrol stations—and, of course, for the person offering the note in payment.
I have tackled colleagues on this matter who say, “Well, I have no problem in London.” I am surprised they say that, because we can have such problems in
London. I accept that trips only between a London airport and Westminster can be easy and without problems, but these difficulties are far more acute out in the suburbs and in other parts of England.
My wife and I spend a lot of our recreation time, when we get it, in County Down in Northern Ireland, where Scottish banknotes circulate extensively and people know about them. There is, I suppose, a cultural reason for that, relating to the close proximity to Scotland. The situation is worse in Northern Ireland, however, which is why if this Bill progresses, I would wish to amend it to include Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland’s population is, I think, 1.7 million, and Bank of Ireland notes circulate there, along with the notes of Ulster bank, First Trust bank, Allied Irish bank and the Northern bank—Members will recall the Northern bank robbery, which involved Northern banknotes. When I visit Northern Ireland, therefore, I often have the full range of both the Scottish and the Northern Irish banknotes, and when I return to London I invariably find that I do not have a Bank of England note. The first thing I do is go somewhere where the other notes are accepted, such as the Members’ Tea Room, where I ask our good friends, who service us well, if they will change them, or the Members’ post office. If I have returned directly to my constituency, I use them at the Dartford toll, where the people are fully briefed about their existence. I need to change them into either coins or Bank of England notes, because this is a real problem. There are also a lot of machines into which banknotes can be fed, and the parking machine at the shopping centre in Bangor in Northern Ireland does not take Bank of England notes. We therefore need standardisation of both acceptability and technology.
I was also interested to hear the hon. Gentleman give the history of this matter. So far as I recall, the widespread use of Bank of England notes is a relatively recent development, dating back to the time of George V. It was therefore interesting to learn that Scotland developed the culture of using paper notes first. It is dancing on the head of a pin to talk about finer points, such as whether they are tender or promissory notes or whatever; we know what we are talking about. Banknotes have a much longer history in Scotland, and Bank of England notes feature more recently in our history.
It is also important to recognise that the banknotes that circulate in the United Kingdom—this applies to all the Scots and Northern Ireland notes—are a revenue earner for both the issuing banks and, to an extent, the local economies, because there is a considerable number of collectors worldwide. We made a similar discovery when Tony Benn broke the mould with regard to stamps, saying that we must have many more issues of postage stamps, even though the Post Office was very conservative on the matter. The banks that issue notes make money by varying the designs from time to time, as there are very enthusiastic banknote collectors worldwide. That is very nice, and it creates awareness of some of the constituent parts of the UK, as well as being a revenue earner for the banks and for Scotland and Northern Ireland. That should be encouraged.
What is the answer? I am not sure that we need to go to the lengths outlined by the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, but I have a suggestion that would, at least, be complementary. I cannot see why the banks that circulate in the United
Kingdom, by which I mean the Bank of England—I include it even though I realise that, as a central bank, it has a different status—the Scots banks and the Northern Ireland banks, could not have all their different designs on one side of a standard-size note, which could be variable. That would be good, and the name of the bank could be included. The certification—the promise that is explicit or implied by the note—could be standard and could be on the other side of the note. That would overcome the problem of forgeries, although not totally. However, in that regard we should remember that, from time to time, we have been inconvenienced by having forged Bank of England bank notes in our pockets.
So on one side of the note would be a standard format indicating that it is a note of use in the United Kingdom—the certification, signed by the chief cashier, and so on—and on the other would be Clydesdale, Royal Bank of Scotland, Bank of Scotland, Ulster bank, Northern bank, First Trust bank, Allied Irish bank and so on. The designs could vary from time to time. It is not rocket science. Of course, the euro coinage has a standard side and a variant relating to the various nations. The coins circulate throughout the EU. Never mind what the Minister’s brief says—I urge her to say that she will take this thought away.
I do understand the sensitivities associated with this issue. The notes with the biggest circulation in the United Kingdom are, for example, Bank of England notes. Some people are London-centric on this issue, but we are talking about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: there are four constituent parts. That is not a nationalist, jingoistic point—it is a matter of fact. Just as an aside, you have probably heard me get irritated on other occasions, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by the name Sport England. It should be “Sport UK”, because we are talking about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Let us rejoice in the fact that this is a political, constitutional entity that has at least four constituent parts, three of which have bank notes that identify with England, Scotland and Northern Ireland respectively, and turn it to our advantage.
Indeed, there is tantalising incentive for the Minister. The new bank note could be named after her.
Andrew Mackinlay: An Eagle—or it could be a Mundell, or a Mundell-Mackinlay, note.
However, it is certainly time that this issue was addressed, and it would be very healthy if such an idea were taken on board. The awareness issue is important, but we can overcome that if we know that there is a common side reflecting the variants of the United Kingdom, and the names of the various issuing banks on the other side.
I commend and support the Bill, and I hope that the Minister will indicate that the Government will reflect on the issues raised by the hon. Gentleman, myself and others.
1.39 pm
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD):
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay). His suggestion at the end, which I shall
come back to—the standardisation of Scottish bank notes with Bank of England and Northern Ireland notes—might, I think, invoke cries of fury north of the border. However, it has a lot to commend it.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) on having the opportunity to introduce his Bill, and on doing so today very lucidly. The intense interest that he suggests supports his Bill north of the border and in the Scottish press is scarcely reflected in the attendance here today by Members of Parliament representing Scottish constituencies, of whom there is not a single one, other than him.
David Mundell: May I advise the hon. Gentleman that, although it is not an event that I would wish to attend, the Scottish Labour party conference is under way in Dundee and in only a few moments’ time the Prime Minister is to address that august gathering?
Mr. Heath: I am grateful for that intervention, and that is a reasonable excuse. I say that because none of my Scottish colleagues is here for a similar reason—it is the Liberal Democrats spring conference in Harrogate this weekend. The hon. Gentleman gives a perfectly fair response to what I had to say.
I hope that I have always been a very strong advocate of the cultural differences that exist within this United Kingdom—I cherish those cultural and historical differences. I have always been at pains to point out the differences in the Scottish jurisdiction, particularly when I have been plying my trade in home affairs and justice over recent years and ensuring that the Government were aware that what applies in the English jurisdiction may not apply in the same way as, and may be completely different from, what applies in the Scottish jurisdiction or, indeed, in the Northern Irish jurisdiction. I am certainly not the sort of London-centred, English imperialist who suggests that everything should be the same; I do not believe that it should.
The existence of Scottish banknotes and the Scottish issuing banks is a historical anomaly in the context of a single United Kingdom, but it is an interesting one that we should not deprecate. It is a fact and it is very unusual. I intervened on the hon. Gentleman to ask whether he could name another country—jurisdiction is not the term I am seeking; I am trying to think of the appropriate word—within which there are nations, that has such a differentiation. I think I am right in saying that apart from Scotland and Northern Ireland, Hong Kong is the only other place where a private bank, rather than a central bank, issues banknotes for general circulation. The position is extremely unusual.
I fully understand the irritation that there must be for people who use these banknotes daily and expect them to be currency across the United Kingdom but find when they come to England or Wales that they have difficulty using them. We should reduce that irritation as far as possible and try to find ways to ensure that such difficulty is not encountered, but it can sometimes be overplayed. I listened carefully to the story that the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale told about Mr. MacLachlan of Inverness and his experiences with the Newcastle Travelex. Travelex is a commercial company, not a clearing bank, so why should
it provide a service completely free of charge? What possible interest would it have in changing Scottish banknotes for English banknotes without charging any sort of commission? Why should it perform that service? That is a reasonable question to ask.
David Mundell: I understand why a commission would be charged for changing one currency into another, but this is the same currency; both these banknotes are sterling, so there should be no charge. Reference has been made to the time when 19s 6d was given for a Scottish note. It is entirely unacceptable that within one currency a different amount from what was handed over should be given back. I do not accept at all the argument being made.
Mr. Heath: I am surprised to hear that, because as I said, the company is not a clearing bank and it has no responsibility in this respect; it is providing a commercial service. It seems to me that it can charge what it likes and if the purchaser does not wish to pay for the service, he must go to bank that will provide it.
David Mundell: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that some form of commission or levy should be deducted when people come into businesses in my constituency en route back to England and ask for Scots notes to be changed into English notes because they are concerned about taking Scots notes back to England? As I explained in my speech, such requests have become common because people are worried about possible difficulties. The retailers do not charge a commission, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that they should do so.
Mr. Heath: I am glad that those retailers change the notes, and I do not want to be misinterpreted on this point. Travelex’s only purpose is to change notes, and the hon. Gentleman’s Bill would require it to change notes—albeit of the same denomination—for nothing, and I am not surprised that it politely declines that opportunity, especially in an airport, where it no doubt has other customers to serve. He may deplore that, and I might wish that things were otherwise, but I do not think that a commercial company can be blamed for charging for a service that it provides. That is the essence of a capitalist society.
Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): I hate to labour the point, but surely there is a difference. Travelex charges a commission on foreign exchanges because of the risk of holding foreign currency. Changing Scottish notes carries no risk, so Travelex should reconsider its policy on that matter.
Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman makes a sound argument, which he should put to Travelex. The question is whether the charge is reasonable in all the circumstances, but that is a matter for Travelex. It is a commercial company providing a service, and that is the only point I am making. It has no statutory duty to do so, and it can decide whether to charge for it. The hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale said that some companies provide the service for free, and I applaud them for their public-spiritedness. It would be good if others followed suit.
I do not want to make it difficult for Scottish notes to be used in England and Wales, because there has been a welcome shift in recent years—or so I understand from talking to Scottish colleagues—especially in London and other major centres. Scottish notes are now more readily accepted. I suspect that the same is true along the border, although I have no evidence for that and my constituency is nowhere near that area. However, I suspect that Scottish bank notes are much more widely acceptable in retail premises south of the border than previously. That should be encouraged. But, and it is a big but, it is a big jump from there to introducing a requirement—I accept that it would be a mild requirement, without draconian measures—that every retail establishment in the whole of the United Kingdom should be happy to accept Scottish notes, in all circumstances, if they are prepared to accept English notes. That has implications for many small businesses in my part of the world, where Scottish notes are very rare.
The hon. Member for Thurrock made an important point, although I did not agree with everything that he said. If Scottish banks are to issue notes, I think—this is a personal opinion—that it is regrettable that they have decided to do so in this commemorative, almost didactic, form. The patterns are designed to promote Scotland or the bank in question, but the variation could cause confusion.
If we were having a debate about a proposal that the Bank of England should no longer produce five patterns for notes but 27, hon. Members on both sides of the House would say, “Don’t be ridiculous—that is a recipe for chaos. Why on earth should we expect businesses suddenly to recognise 27 different patterns on notes in circulation across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?” If one added the five Northern Ireland banks and their range of notes, there would be a huge proliferation of patterns on notes in common circulation, making it almost impossible for someone who is not familiar with them to recognise what was a valid note and what was not.
Angela Eagle: The hon. Gentleman has made a perfectly understandable point about confusion and the proliferation of different sorts of notes. As for the figures, there are 22 different Scottish banknotes, and 17 different Northern Ireland banknotes, not counting commemorative editions which, in some cases, can be circulated. That is the number of different notes that we are talking about in this context.
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