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10 Mar 2009 : Column 6WH—continued
The hon. Gentleman says that nobody in Wales supports the proposal that we are debating, but I suggest that he join me on a Saturday afternoon watching my local team and talk to the parents of young players and young children. I accept that when I raise the matter it divides opinion, but the hon. Gentleman does not have a monopoly to speak for the football-loving people of Wales on this issue. I accept that there are establishments—the football associations—that strongly oppose the proposal, and I share some of their fears, but it is utterly wrong to suggest that nobody else in the footballing world of Wales supports it.
Mr. Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman proclaims that he knows about all the support for this in Wales. I confess that I have not come across anybody who seriously suggests that it is a good idea.
Albert Owen: I will develop my argument, but I repeat what I have said. I have been speaking to people in the stands of my local football team while watching games and talking to parents and I think that they would believe that what I have said is so, with certain caveats and assurances, which we must have in every sport—football is no different. Other teams have certain concerns about the identity of their national sport when asked to have an Olympic team. I am sure that the Minister will highlight that in his winding-up speech.
Like the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, I have a passion for football. I remember, as a young man in the 1970s, watching Wales play Northern Ireland at Goodison Park, my favourite football team’s stadium. I recall going to Hampden and watching Wales lose, draw and win against Scotland on occasions. As a football supporter from north-west Wales, even to go to a home game—having to travel to Cardiff—was a journey in itself. I have also supported the Welsh national football team across the world. I have been to international games in many countries and supported that team and will continue to do so.
I also support grass-roots football and the game at premier level—the Welsh premier league and the Football Association premier league—so I do not see any divisions based on boundaries. I enjoy football per se. That is why I will support the idea, with the assurances that I have mentioned, that a United Kingdom team give the opportunity for Welsh young people to look at Welsh participation in an Olympic team.
Mr. MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman says that he does not support any boundaries in football, but I have been listening to his account of his support for the Welsh football team over the years and I wonder whether any Portuguese Members of Parliament are looking for unification with Spain for an Iberian team. I would not think so. He talks about the idea of football without boundaries and says that is why he would support a United Kingdom team, but, extending his argument logically, would he support a European Union football team? I certainly would not, but the logic of his argument indicates that he would.
Albert Owen: I am certainly not going to allow the hon. Gentleman to put words in my mouth. I was saying that I believe in football first—football as a game—to inspire young people to come into sport. That is my first and foremost viewpoint.
I remember, as a young man, watching the Olympic games every four years and seeing Olympians from the four home nations winning gold medals. My earliest memory is of Lynn Davies winning the long jump for Wales and Great Britain in Tokyo. I remember David Hemery, the great hurdler in the Mexico Olympics, winning for England and the United Kingdom and Great Britain. I also remember Mary Peters, the great Northern Ireland athlete, winning in Munich in 1972 for Northern Ireland and for Britain. Of course, I remember Alan Wells, in the Moscow Olympics, winning for Scotland and the United Kingdom, Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
John Mason: The hon. Gentleman places great stress on the fact that people can represent both the UK or GB and the home nation, but was it not the case that in Beijing a choice had to be made, because the Chinese authorities would not allow Scottish and Welsh flags to be displayed, owing to the Tibetan problems, and that people have to choose whether they want to be in GB/UK or in Scotland/Wales?
Albert Owen: The hon. Gentleman is confusing the emotive issue of flags with what I am talking about. I do not think that Chris Hoy, the great Scottish Olympian, worried about wearing a Great Britain vest. That is my point: he and many athletes in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England are proud to be Scottish, Welsh, English, Northern Irish and British. That argument needs to be brought to this debate and that is what I intend to do.
Although the 2008 Olympics brought great gold tallies to the United Kingdom, my favourite moment was when the Welsh cyclist, Nicole Cooke, whose enthusiasm inspired so many athletes across the United Kingdom crossed the line, saying, “Yes, yes, yes!” and won the first medal for Britain. She did it for British sport. She will inspire people to get on their bikes and ride for Britain and for Wales. That is how sport can inspire people.
Mr. MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman perhaps makes the point. I did not realise that that young lady was Welsh. I just thought that she was from somewhere else in the UK. The Welsh identity was lost at that moment.
Albert Owen: I will develop this argument, but I repeat that many athletes and many people in Wales can be proud to be both Welsh and British—and that principle applies in Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. That is no boundary for them. Artificial boundaries are put in place by many people, including the Scottish National party.
Mr. MacNeil: A European Union football team?
Albert Owen: Yes, European. People are proud to represent the British Lions and Ireland by putting on those shirts: it does not make them any less Irish, and the proposal we are talking about does not make people any less Welsh, English or Scottish. That is my point. The ethos of sport and competing is more important than narrow nationalistic views.
Pete Wishart:
The hon. Gentleman may or may not be right, but does he not share my concern and fears about his national football side if we were to come
together as team GB? That is what this debate is about. Has he any fears about the future existence of his beloved Welsh side if we come together as Team GB?
Albert Owen: I am trying to be generous in giving way to broaden this debate from the idea of being Scottish or British and from losing identity to one of greater participation in sport by people from the home nations.
There is an opportunity to bring my love of football and the Olympics together in the United Kingdom by having a United Kingdom team. That is important. That does not go against my strong support for a Welsh football or rugby team or any Welsh team. When Wales plays England, I have a passion for seeing Wales beating England equal to that of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire; equally, however, when I see a Welsh athlete in a British shirt representing Great Britain, I want them to succeed. I want people watching them to be inspired and to come into sport. That does happen and it will happen in the next Olympics.
Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): If one of the amazing young crop of Welsh football stars thought that putting on a British vest in a British football team would endanger the future of a Welsh national football side and, therefore, their chance to compete for Wales in the World cup in the future, what does the hon. Gentleman think they would do?
Albert Owen: I do not think they should be put in that position, and I shall come to that. [Interruption.] There is no exactly, and no blueprint, I am sorry to say. I am equally keen on rugby, and when a Welsh athlete plays for the British Lions, they are not put in that position because they have assurances from their national and international bodies. That is the point that I shall come to. I shall make a counter-argument against some of the issues that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire raised.
I am suggesting that passion for sport comes first, and I dispute the suggestion that no one in Wales or Scotland likes the idea. The establishment, the Scottish media, the pundits and others are taking the “no” lead, but football in 2012 will be hosted in the greatest stadium in the United Kingdom—the Millennium stadium. Imagine the irony if young people from all over Wales, the United Kingdom and the world were watching football at that great stadium with not a single Welsh player representing a United Kingdom team. That would be a missed opportunity for football, but it would happen if a UK team had only English players. Imagine the irony of the Welsh passion in that stadium supporting an English team against a Portuguese or Brazilian team if young Welsh stars were denied the opportunity to play on that great occasion. The Olympic games is the greatest sporting occasion in the world.
Mr. Sutcliffe: On the point about football and the Olympic games, does my hon. Friend think it was clever of the three associations to write to the British Olympic Association saying that they did not think football should be an Olympic sport?
Albert Owen:
I do not think that was clever. I have travelled with the Football Association of Wales to away games when there were not many supporters. In
fact, there were more people wearing blazers—officials of the association—than supporters. I declare an interest, and I think there is some protectionism.
I accept what the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr (Adam Price) says. Of course, I do not want Welsh players to risk losing their Welsh status, but I want them to have the opportunity in 2012 to represent the United Kingdom. I do not use the phrase “Team GB” because it will be a UK team from Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I want to see a UK team, not a GB team, represented.
Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): The name is wrong.
Mr. Greg Pope (in the Chair): Order. This is a good-natured debate, and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) has been generous with his time, but there are too many sedentary interventions. If hon. Members want to intervene, they should make proper interventions, but we cannot have heckling.
Albert Owen: My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) will be able to make his points if he catches your eye, Mr. Pope.
I understand how the Scottish Football Association, the Football Association of Wales and the Irish Football Association feel when there is such a strong negative campaign, and when private meetings have been held but assurances and private conversations have been leaked to the press. I understand that FIFA’s executive met in Tokyo and gave assurances that national identities would not be eroded. There may be debates outside that, but FIFA said that this one-off opportunity for the United Kingdom football team at the 2012 Olympics would not harm the status of the four individual nations. That is important. [Interruption.] I will not give way again, because I have done so several times and other hon. Members want to speak.
Those assurances should be accepted. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire said that only the under-23s would be affected. Only young people? Many young players go on beyond that, but many are at their prime at 21 and they will have the opportunity to excel on the national stage at the showcase that is the Olympics and at stadiums such as the millennium stadium in Cardiff and Wembley stadium. The millennium stadium attracted great passion last year when Cardiff City played in the FA cup. Many Welsh people were happy to support Cardiff City and its international players, including Aaron Ramsey; I am sure that the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr will agree that he is a likely contender for the first team of any UK team. The Arsenal player, who is a talented young man and would play a great role, will be 22 in 2012, so he could be an under-23 player. He would inspire many girls and boys in Wales and the United Kingdom. That is why football would be the winner if there were a UK team.
Many nationalist politicians in Wales go further and instead of making a pro-football or a pro-sport argument, they use this as an anti-Britain agenda. I have heard Welsh politicians who want to do away with the British Lions. Imagine a British Lions team without the likes of Gareth Edwards and Barry John if we followed the logic of allowing them to play only for Wales. The British Lions tour to South Africa in the summer will be more than just peppered with Welsh talent as they
represent Great Britain and Ireland on the international rugby stage. That would not harm Wales if they subsequently went for another grand slam.
There is an agenda—the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire is right—and it is narrow and nationalist. [Interruption.]The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr. MacNeil) says that I can do better. I could go on, but I am trying to speak about the subject of the debate. I believe that the British Lions are richer for having Welsh participation, and a GB football team would be richer for having Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish representatives. One can be proud to be Welsh, proud to be Scottish, proud to be English, proud to be Northern Irish and proud to be British. Putting on a GB football shirt in 2012 would enhance sport in Britain and the home countries. In Beijing, British people from all the home countries came home to celebrations in their individual capital cities.
I want British football to be seen from the terraces of the millennium stadium with Welsh representatives playing alongside people from other countries. I would like the team to be fully Welsh if it was selected on merit, but British sport has a role to play at national level. The assurances that have been given must be taken seriously. The football associations may have their own way and there may be just an English team with no participation from other players, and FIFA might still argue that national teams should merge. That debate will not go away, and it is wrong to use it nationalistically, as supporters of nationalist parties and nationalist politicians have done.
The beautiful game, merged with the Olympics, will enhance sport and football. I support a 2012 UK team with the assurances that that will not be detrimental to national identity.
10.8 am
Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing this important debate, which he introduced in his usual idiosyncratic style. I am aware that despite this debate being broadly good-natured, I may be intruding on private grief between his party and the Labour party north and west of the English border. I confess that I have considerable sympathy with elements of his political argument, although I would have couched them more tactfully.
The Prime Minister’s risible Britishness agenda disguises the fact that his Government’s ill thought through devolution a decade ago has destroyed British people’s—English, Scottish and Welsh—understanding of Britain as it has existed since 1707. We are at an interim stage. There is no going back from a Scottish Parliament. We have an asymmetrical feeling of devolution throughout the UK, which means equal powers. Heaven only knows how that will be worked through. It is a mess at the moment, and to go on about Britishness risibly attempts to disguise the fact that Mr. Brown is a Scot. He represents or is from a country of 4.5 million people out of 60 million. That will be very evident as time goes on. I would not have wished to make that argument before 1997, but his Government have brought it on themselves. It will resonate loudly during the next general election campaign—very regrettably, in my view.
I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire has to say—I suspect that I will be at odds with those on my Front Bench on this matter—because I think that the essence of spectator sport is competition and rivalry. Sport also, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, brings people together. I confess that I scribbled my notes for the debate at the beginning of the weekend and I referred to sport as “war by other means”. The terrible events of the past 72 hours in one part of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland—I am sure that the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) would point out that it is part of the United Kingdom, rather than part of Great Britain—put those comments in context.
However, spectacles such as the World cup and the Olympic games have a global appeal. The first ever international soccer match took place 137 years ago, between Scotland and England in Glasgow. It was a goalless draw, which I suspect reflected not a lack of endeavour, but a determination on both sides to avoid defeat. It is the oldest international in the football fixture list. The notion of a GB team runs counter to the rich history of that rivalry, but it would also set some potentially worrying and unintended precedents, on which I shall focus.
Let us say that there was a GB team for the Olympics. Almost inevitably, despite what the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) had to say, demand would grow for a GB team for all competitions. It might lead to the end of the Scottish league. There has been a great deal of talk for some years now that the two Glasgow teams—Celtic and Rangers—might join the premiership, although I suspect that the ease of passage for them into the champions league means that it is more attractive to play north of the border than to venture south.
We have seen—the Minister will be well aware of this—the joint hosting of football championships. That started at the 2002 World cup, hosted by Japan and South Korea. In 2008, the European championships were hosted by Austria and Switzerland. There was talk until recently of a joint bid for the 2016 European championships by Scotland and Wales. That idea has been dropped, ostensibly for economic reasons. We have seen the great rise of the African footballing powers.
Albert Owen: My understanding is that the joint bid for the European championships was supported by many Members of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. They felt that the Celtic nations could indeed host the championships. Would that pose the same threats to the national identities of those teams?
Mr. Field: I accept that that may have been the thought in the Scottish Parliament. I think that there would have been a risk.
Let me move on to a more general point. We are talking now of a World cup of 32 nations, whereas 20 or so years ago there were only 16 nations in the World cup finals. The European championships will involve 24 nations next time, partly for the reasons that have been pointed out. We have seen the emergence of eight or nine sovereign nations from the former Yugoslavia and we have seen something similar with the former USSR, with a number of those states playing their part. There are now 195 nations in the UN, and football is ever more important as the global game.
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