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7.45 pm
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), even though I do not agree with many of the points he made. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), who made an excellent speech and highlighted the many problems that could arise from the motion.
This is not a debate about the merits of the Youth Parliament and whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. I am proud of the fact that I spend as much time as I can trying to engage with members of the Youth Parliament in my constituency. When they are elected, I always contact them straight away to congratulate them and make it clear that I am happy to meet them and discuss any issue. I recently attended a debate of the Youth Parliament in the chamber of Bradford council, and what a fine debate it was. Some excellent speeches were made, and the debate was of an extremely high calibre. The idea that anybody who is opposed to the Youth Parliament sitting in this Chamber must therefore be opposed to the Youth Parliament is completely wrong, and it is not particularly generous of people to say that. I have a great deal of admiration for young people who make every effort to stand in an election and want to make a difference in their local community. I am full of admiration for them, but that makes no difference to the debate.
Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman has emerged as the youth wing of the Conservative neanderthals who are opposing the motion. What does he believe that young people think about this debate? Does he believe that it shows us in the best possible light when we are trying to engage young people in voting for us to come this House?
Philip Davies: The great thing about this is that we are having a debate. One of the most shameful episodes in this case has been the fact that, day in and day out, the Government have tried to sneak the motion on to the Order Paper and get it through without any debate whatever taking place. What message does the hon. Gentleman believe that sends to the Youth Parliament? It shows this House in a better light when we debate and air things. That is surely the best example that we can send the Youth Parliament, rather than trying to sneak things through at the end of a quiet night and hope that nobody notices what is going on.
Mr. Bone: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. Is not the problem with the Government’s attempts to sneak the motion through the fact that this Executive are used to getting things through without proper debate? We need only look at the Northern Ireland Bill, which they forced through in one day. The advantage of this business is that we have some say in it.
Philip Davies:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If we are trying to set a good example to the Youth Parliament, which of course we should, because we want to inspire younger people to get involved in politics, perhaps we ought to examine some of the processes of this House and how the Government curtail debate and all too often prevent it from taking place. I will certainly
not take any lectures from the Deputy Leader of the House about the importance of encouraging younger people to take part in the parliamentary process, given that it is this Government who have done most to undermine that process.
Bob Spink: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is possible that, rather than us setting a good example to the Youth Parliament, the Youth Parliament may well set this House a good example if it is given the opportunity?
Philip Davies: It may well set this House a good example in many respects, but that does not mean that it should sit in this Chamber. I shall come in a few moments to some of the reasons why I do not believe that it should do so.
I always tell young people that when a politician is given a problem to solve, their solution will incorporate two ingredients. The first is that they have to be seen to be doing something—it is the bane of politicians’ lives. I long for the day when a Minister says, “Actually, that’s got nothing to do with us.” That will never happen, because they never underestimate their power. The second ingredient is that the proposals must not offend anybody. A politician who can find a solution that incorporates the two ingredients of being seen to do something and not offending anybody will dash for it with alacrity. That appears to be the current position: the Prime Minister has got himself into a muddle by making a promise that he found harder to fulfil than perhaps he thought. Wanting to seem trendy and cool to young people, his solution to the problem of his unpopularity with everybody, including young people, is to look as if he is doing something that will not offend anybody: letting the Youth Parliament sit in the House of Commons Chamber. That is typical politician-talk and the sort of thing that brings the House into disrepute.
Anne Moffat (East Lothian) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman makes much of the Prime Minister’s position. What does the Leader of the Opposition think about the matter?
Philip Davies: The Leader of the Opposition is more than capable of speaking for himself. He does not need me to speak for him; I am not sure that he would ever ask me to speak for him. I can tell the hon. Lady what I think, which is probably the safest position for me to adopt. When she meets my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) in the corridor, she can ask for his views—I am sure that he would be more than happy to tell her. Perhaps my right hon. Friend does not agree with me, but that would not be the first time and I suspect that it will not be the last. The hon. Lady’s point does not, therefore, make a great deal of difference.
Mr. Chope: Does my hon. Friend know whether the Prime Minister has invited the UK Youth Parliament to sit around the Cabinet table?
Philip Davies: I do not know, but I am sure that it is only a matter of time.
The onus is on the Government and hon. Members who believe that the Youth Parliament should sit here to make their case. The case for change needs to be made; the case for no change does not. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) is in his place, because I remember his
fine speech in the debate on House of Lords reform. He said that, for a Conservative, if it was not necessary to change, it was necessary not to change. That has stuck with me and is an especially good point. It is one thing that makes us Conservatives.
My hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) made a point about somebody who had been transformed by sitting in the UK Youth Parliament. I am sure that it is an inspiring story and that we want to encourage such transformation, but it happened without the person sitting in the House of Commons Chamber. That person’s life was transformed without a Youth Parliament debate taking place in the House. People do not need to sit in here for their lives to be transformed through the UK Youth Parliament.
Mr. Brady: My hon. Friend is being slightly unfair to some colleagues who have already spoken. He claims that the case for change has not made, but several hon. Members have presented such a case. However, they have not adequately differentiated the one organisation and the one instance from any others. Would those who say that the Chamber is just another room and that the Benches are just furniture make it available to any worthwhile organisation?
Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is right—I should have said that no persuasive case had been made for change. He is also right about the precedent that could be set, and I hope to deal with that shortly.
The best case that those in favour make appears to be that we should allow the UK Youth Parliament in here because its members will not trash the place or leave bubble gum under the seats. Nobody has suggested that they would do that. That is not a persuasive case. Let us hope that they do not trash the place; I am sure that they will not, but surely the case should be slightly stronger.
I accept the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch about being patronising. We have heard much about the low turnout among young people at general elections. Those in favour of the Youth Parliament’s sitting in the House of Commons Chamber appear to suggest that, if we let it do so, all of a sudden, that turnout will go through the roof and be sky high. That is simplistic nonsense. Will the Deputy Leader of the House tell us the measure of his success? If the Youth Parliament is allowed to sit in the Chamber for this year only, will he estimate the turnout among young people at the next general election, so that we can judge whether the event has been a great triumph in inspiring younger people to vote?
Younger people do not vote at general elections because we do not inspire them to do that. The onus is on us. Pretending that we can carry on as we have always done and trot out the same meaningless stuff that will not offend anybody, or go around saying nothing and hoping that nobody notices, while claiming that allowing the Youth Parliament to sit in this Chamber for one day means that, all of a sudden, the turnout at general elections will go through the roof, is ludicrous. Surely nobody believes that allowing the Youth Parliament to sit here for one day will make a massive difference to turnout at a UK general election.
Young people do not want to vote because they never hear arguments about ideas and politics. I was brought up in the 1980s, when there was a clear difference between the political parties and we could have a battle of ideas. Young people are inspired by that, not the meaningless drivel that people trot out because they are so scared of offending anybody. If we want to inspire young people, let us have a battle of ideas and try to inspire them to get involved in Parliament.
The question that has not been tackled—I do not understand how it can—is: why only the Youth Parliament? Why only for one year? Surely if it is a good thing for the Youth Parliament to sit here, it is good for it to sit here every year.
Mr. Bone: My hon. Friend is making his usual powerful case. Does he agree that one problem with allowing the Youth Parliament to sit here is that, under European Union law, we would discriminate against other organisations if we did not allow them to sit here?
Philip Davies: I know that my hon. Friend shares my enthusiasm for the European Union. He may well be right. In my brief time in politics, I have learned never to be surprised by anything. It would not therefore surprise me if the European Union, which does barmy things day in, day out, interfered in the Chamber. It already decides 80 per cent. of our laws, so it may well want to decide who can sit in the Chamber.
What is so special about the UK Youth Parliament? I am the first to acknowledge that it does good work, that I greatly admire those who stand for election to it and that we want to inspire them to get involved in politics in the long run, but there are other bodies that also get involved in local politics and the political process, which I greatly admire. I recently attended a meeting in Shipley of people who hoped to establish a learning disability parliament. I wish them every success. I hope that it brings greater focus on the issues that affect those people. If such a parliament is established, should its members be able to use the Chamber? If not, why not? Why would that be a worse organisation than the UK Youth Parliament? What is the difference? Why would we want to discriminate against a learning disability parliament?
The National Pensioners Convention has been mentioned. It does a great job in highlighting issues that affect pensioners. Many pensioners in my constituency would argue that we do not pay enough attention to the problems that they face. In particular, many on a fixed income are trying to manage when savings are decreasing and they are struggling to get by. Would we allow the National Pensioners Convention to meet here? If not, why not? Why does it constitute a worse case than the UK Youth Parliament?
We were told earlier that there is a big problem with turnout among young people at elections, that the role of the Youth Parliament is underestimated and that the proposal would give it useful publicity. I can tell hon. Members that there is very little recognition of what my local parish council does. It does a great job. There are people on the council who volunteer their time, putting many hours for the benefit of the local community. The council could certainly do with some useful publicity to raise its profile. Why can my parish council not have its annual meeting in the House of Commons Chamber, if
that would give it some useful publicity and highlight the good work that it does? There is a never-ending list of useful organisations that do marvellous things in the local community.
Mr. Leigh: To be fair to the proponents of the proposal, they argue that the Youth Parliament is quite different because those involved cannot vote in a normal election. However, nobody remains 17 for ever. Why should that group, whose disability will vanish, be allowed to sit here, whereas those other people will never be allowed to sit here? I do not see the logic of that.
Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is entirely right.
We want to encourage members of the Youth Parliament to come to sit in this House. I was immensely honoured when I was elected to this House. I had a feeling of immense pride. I cannot even explain to people how much pride I felt at being elected to represent my constituents in Parliament. It is the finest thing that could happen to anybody. Surely we should encourage younger people to aspire to that. We do not want them to think, “Well, I’ve already sat and had a debate in there. I’m not really bothered about standing for Parliament any more—I’ve already done that.”
Those hon. Members who think that that might not happen have already conceded that it could by saying that the reason the Youth Parliament cannot sit in Committee Room 14 or the House of Lords is that it has already done so. If the Youth Parliament is allowed to have its day in the House of Commons Chamber, why would it not think, “We’ve already done that and we don’t want to do it again—we’re not interested anymore”? If that is the argument for why neither Committee Room 14 nor the House of Lords can used, surely we will put people off standing for Parliament.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and for his kind remarks earlier. He is making a formidable case and I entirely support him. However, surely the fundamental issue is that this Chamber is not a toy. The idea behind the move is a cheap gimmick to try to court the vote of the youth. As he has made clear, however, it is likely to have no such effect whatever. Furthermore, is there not an ancient tradition in this place that when visitors come here, the Doorkeepers and others are religious in insisting that no visitor shall sit on one of these Benches unless he has fought a parliamentary election and won? That is the qualification of being in this Chamber and sitting on these Benches; there is no other.
Philip Davies: As ever, my hon. Friend is entirely right. I absolutely agree with him. He is a great defender of Parliament as an institution. I just wish that all other hon. Members were such stalwart defenders of this institution.
Mr. Chope: Following the excellent point made by our hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth), has my hon. Friend considered the implications of the arguments that might be deployed by, for example, Sinn Fein MPs who have not accepted the Oath and who currently cannot sit on these green Benches? If we accepted the motion this evening, we would be allowing people from the UK Youth Parliament to exercise a privilege that we do not give to those who have been elected under the Sinn Fein banner.
Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The point is that the motion sets such a precedent that nobody knows where on earth it would end up. The idea that says, “Well, it’s a very specific motion—it’s only for one year, it’s just for the UK Youth Parliament and that’s that,” is incredibly naive. Whenever anybody wants to use the Chamber, this motion will be used as a precedent to say, “The UK Youth Parliament was allowed in here, so why not us?” The case will be irresistible and everyone will have to acknowledge the logic of the argument. Either people are allowed to use this Chamber or they are not. We cannot say that some people are allowed and some people are not.
Mr. Bone: On the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) made about Members of this House not being allowed to sit in this Chamber unless they have taken the Loyal Oath to Her Majesty, does my hon. Friend envisage members of the Youth Parliament having to take the Loyal Oath before attending?
Philip Davies: I cannot answer my hon. Friend’s question, but it shows that the Deputy Leader of the House has an awful lot of ground to cover in answering the many legitimate questions being posed. Indeed, there seem to be more questions as time goes on.
Pete Wishart: Because of the repairs required for the House, it is quite likely that we will have to decant in the next few years, possibly to the Queen Elizabeth building across the road. Would the hon. Gentleman be as vigorously opposed to the Youth Parliament sitting there as he is to the motion this evening? Is the issue about Parliament or about this Chamber?
Philip Davies: The issue is the Chamber. The Youth Parliament should not be allowed to use the Chamber in which the debates take place. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has made it clear that that argument is not about preventing the Youth Parliament from having its annual meeting in Parliament. I am certainly very happy for the Youth Parliament to have its annual meeting in Parliament. I am happy to play my part by having a discussion with the Youth Parliament about politics, and by even showing people round and trying to inspire them to get involved in politics. However, that can quite easily be done by using Committee Room 14, Westminster Hall, or anywhere else for that matter. The point is about using the Chamber.
Mr. Chope: Is my hon. Friend aware that when I gave the Deputy Leader of the House the impression earlier that there would be a free vote among Back and Front-Bench Conservative Members, I was not giving the whole picture? Does my hon. Friend understand that Conservative Front Benchers are not being given a free vote in tonight’s proceedings?
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