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28 Apr 2009 : Column 195WH—continued
That is not to say that we should not invest in renewables. It is important that we do so, and that we consider venture capital and development in general. At the end of the day, as I said, that will be our survival. Where do we go next? How do we go on? If the hon. Member for Angus was right about excavation for uranium, which, unfortunately for him, is very small, then I say to him that we have not considered it in any great detail because what we have more than meets our needs. Like everything else, the more we need and the harder it becomes to find, the more we must consider different ways to do things and the more expensive it becomes. We understand all that, but at this time, the supply of uranium for the present and the foreseeable future, even considering the growth in nuclear energy, will meet everybody’s needs for some time to come. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister will comment on this, or at least pass on the message to the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change. I hope that the Government will consider reprocessing to make the fuel last longer and cut back on waste. I would like to see us go down that road.
I know that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Willie Rennie) is waiting to speak. There was quite a lot that I wanted to say, but I think that I have hit all the buttons that I wanted to hit. The most important is that we want to work with each other. The most important thing at the moment is that we do not argue about what kind of energy supply we want or need. I want to see investment in Scotland. I want the billions of pounds that other areas will receive to come north of the border.
In his speech yesterday, the First Minister discussed the possibility that 9,000 jobs could be lost north of the border as a result of the Budget. Building one nuclear power station would create 9,000 jobs. I can solve that problem for him; he can have those 9,000 jobs. I will even go further: let us have two nuclear power stations and create another 9,000 jobs. I believe that that electricity would be useful for the rest of the country. I believe that jobs north of the border would be very welcome, particularly at this time. I also believe that the people of Scotland deserve the best. We should give it to them.
10.25 am
Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): I congratulate my neighbour, the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks), on his excellent exposition of the case. It is a complicated subject. I am also grateful to the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) for the update on his housing renovations; it was particularly useful in a time-constrained debate. I will be coming to see his house soon to ensure that we benefit from them. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) for his brevity. Obviously, he believes passionately in nuclear. I do not, but he does, for which I commend him.
Fife has contributed significantly over the centuries with a single energy source: coal. We now have a wide range of sources, including biomass. There is a plant over at Leven, and two more are being developed at Longannet and Markinch. Council waste is being turned into combined heat and power. We have wind energy at Raith, and many other sites are being considered by planners. We also have underground coal gasification
and methane extraction. From a single source, we have moved to a huge range of sources, which reflects the journey that the whole UK is making.
However, Fife has a particular contribution to make, which ties in with Longannet. Iberdrola, which owns Scottish Power, has indicated that if carbon capture and storage receives the go-ahead, it will make Longannet a centre of excellence. Iberdrola is a worldwide company with huge weight, resources and expertise. It is a world leader in wind power. If we can get it to contribute significantly to making Longannet a centre of excellence, we can tie that up with the energy park being developed over at Methil, and Fife could make a huge contribution to the UK’s energy future. I am keen to ensure that that happens.
CCS has a particular contribution to make, not only because it is a new technology that needs to be exploited to meet our energy needs but because the location includes the Forth valley, one of the biggest contributors to carbon emissions in the UK, with Grangemouth, Mossmorran, Cockenzie, Longannet and many other industrial sites. If we can make it work at Longannet, we could tap into those carbon emissions as well, so the potential is huge. There is easy access to the North sea and the aquifer that we heard about, which I understand could take almost all of Europe’s CO2 emissions. It is a massive aquifer that Fife has great potential to exploit. I am excited about the opportunities ahead, as well as the potential to exploit markets worldwide; we have heard about China and elsewhere. That is why retrofit is so important. It cannot just involve new build; there must be retrofit as well.
A few years ago, nobody was thinking about the next phase of coal-fired power stations, but there have been some interesting converts, including me, to that new technology. The other day, WWF said that
“if the govt wishes to demonstrate the technology”—
“on conventional power plants, then it is only sensible to use an existing station such as Longannet station in Scotland rather than building a new one.”
Who would have imagined that environmental organisations such as WWF would be advocating coal in such a short time, when they had been clear advocates against it in the past? I welcome that as a great opportunity.
We have heard a lot about transmission charging. We often hear that one part of Government has a policy contradicting another part of Government. It is frustrating, but we can understand why it happens. The problem is when the same arm of Government proposes opposite policies. Plants situated north of the border and furthest from the market are being penalised, but at the same time, Ministers are advocating nuclear and renewables north of the border, contrary to the first policy. The Government really need to get their line straight and work out whether they are in favour of increasing energy production and generation in Scotland.
That is why I cannot quite understand the argument that the hon. Members for Glasgow, North-West and for Ochil and South Perthshire were making. If they are in favour of nuclear, why are they not against Ofgem’s generating formula? I am sure that if we were to ask Ofgem, it would never say so publicly but it would say
privately, “Why on earth are you even considering building new nuclear power stations in Scotland, because that is not where we want new energy generation? We want it south of the border, where the market is.” So the Government need to sort out whether or not they are in favour of generation in Scotland. Forget about renewables. Do the Government want more generation in Scotland, because Ofgem does not seem to be in favour of that option?
I will conclude with one final plea, which is that I hope that the Government will not allow the carbon capture and storage project to slip. There has been some delay already. We have heard about the plant up in the north-east of Scotland. However, even with the current carbon capture competition there has been some slippage. If we are really to exploit the worldwide potential for this technology, we need to ensure that we take advantage now and that we do not allow any slippage, any bureaucracy or any Administration to get in the way of something that could be hugely important for Scotland and the UK.
10.31 am
Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): I welcome you to the Chair, Mrs. Humble. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) on securing this debate and on his contribution to it. I particularly commend him for framing the debate in such a way as to allow us to discuss not just generation but consumption—to discuss one element without the other would be essentially a sterile exercise. That has rather been the hallmark of many of the debates that the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) referred to and in which the hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) and I have taken part since we entered the House.
If there has been a lack of debate on a subject, it has perhaps been on the potential for energy efficiency. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire touched on that subject during his remarks. None the less, we risk—at our peril—forgetting that energy efficiency is the real potential area for change within the energy market.
On the subject of energy consumption, there is one point that I have found increasingly coming to my desk through constituency surgeries, which is the quite outrageous sums that are charged by electricity supply companies to those constituents who rely on card meters. One woman came to my surgery just last week in Shetland and she told me that she is now paying in the region of £200 a month in electricity costs for a two-bedroom house in Shetland. For somebody who is on benefits, that is an outrageous proportion of her income to pay out. Certainly, it takes her well above the threshold of the 10 per cent. of a person’s income that is supposed to be the marker of fuel poverty. Bear in mind also that, almost without exception, the people who have card meters are the people who are on the lowest and most rigidly fixed incomes. They are the people who have no choice and who often tell me that they end up simply sitting in the dark with no lighting and no heat, just because they cannot afford to meet the costs that are being placed on them by energy companies. I sometimes wish that Ofgem would pursue those features of the market with the same vigour that it appears to apply to pursuing other features.
One of the reasons why we have had the full range of debates that the hon. Member for Angus referred to is the fact that, certainly since 2001 and probably in the four years before that, rarely has a year gone by in this House without there being a Government White Paper, a discussion document, a consultation, a strategy unit investigation, a draft Bill or a Bill on energy. The one thing that we never seem to get out of the Government in general and out of 10 Downing street in particular is a decision. That has been apparent from the way in which the debate has proceeded today.
In relation to the nuclear debate, the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire said two things that caused me particular concern and I want to touch on them. He said that he was concerned about nuclear waste and that historically was why he had decided that he was not in favour of nuclear power. He now tells us that he has changed his mind, but he did not tell us that anything had changed with regard to the handling and management of nuclear waste. The fact of the matter is that, notwithstanding the efforts of the Government through the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management and other bodies, nothing has changed. The legitimate concerns that led him to conclude previously—before the Government changed their policy, of course—that nuclear was not the option to take still remain.
I am not theologically opposed to nuclear power; if I might say so. I am not doctrinally opposed to it. The reason that I am opposed to it is specifically the lack of openness and candour that the nuclear industry demonstrates with regard to the management of nuclear waste. If the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire has had his concerns assuaged with regard to nuclear waste, I would suggest that he has been bought politically, if I can put it in a slightly pejorative way, rather too cheaply.
Gordon Banks: On that point, I want to make it clear that nobody buys and sells Gordon Banks. My decision has been arrived at by me alone, because I see the significant dangers of coming into this room, putting that light switch on and nothing happening.
Mr. Carmichael: None the less, the hon. Gentleman seems to be sold on the idea that one particular avenue should be explored, to the exclusion of everything else. I must also say to him that I said “politically” bought, because I did not want to suggest that there was any element of corruption involved here. However, I must say that he was right to take the concerns about nuclear waste seriously. Nothing has changed with regard to that, so I do not see why his position has changed.
John Robertson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Carmichael: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman as I am concerned about making some progress. Unlike other hon. Members, I must limit myself to nine minutes.
The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire suggested that this issue should stimulate a reconsideration of the constitutional position with regard to the Scottish Government having power over the planning considerations under the Electricity Act 1989. I want to say that that view is fundamentally wrong-headed. We decide where powers lie constitutionally in this place and elsewhere on the basis of where they lie most appropriately. It was the decision of this House in 1997, and I think that it was the right decision, that that power over planning
considerations should be vested in the Parliament and the Government in Scotland, and people should not start changing that situation simply because they do not like the decisions that have been taken.
The final concern that I have about the remarks of both the hon. Members for Ochil and South Perthshire and for Glasgow, North-West is that the hon. Members seem to confuse policies on job creation with policies on energy. We make our choices on energy according to energy considerations. If we see energy simply as a mechanism for generating more jobs, we risk making decisions that will not be in our own long-term strategic interests.
Other hon. Members have spoken about the distribution and transmission charging regimes, which is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. Again, I would just emphasise one point. To my mind, locational charging makes a substantial measure of sense, when we are talking about transmission losses where electricity has been generated by using fossil fuels. However, completely different considerations should apply when we are talking about electricity that is generated from renewables.
On the subject of gas, of course, not all gas comes into this country from the North sea. The potential now is for gas to come from the west of Shetland. That is the next untapped resource. Both from a constituency and strategic point of view, a substantial concern is that we have still not had the necessary decisions taken in Government to allow the full development of gas west of Shetland. I shall be interested to hear exactly what role the Minister’s Department has taken in that debate. I suspect it will not take her long to talk about that.
10.40 am
Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship today, Mrs. Humble. As my neighbour, you will, of course, know well the debate about gas storage and some of the other issues we have been discussing today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) on initiating the debate. He made a measured and logical speech. I agreed with everything he said and cannot fault much of it. It was great that there was a lack of ideology, and a concern to solve the problems and face up to the growing energy crisis that could occur if we do not do anything. That is the type of adult attitude that I believe the major political parties are adopting. There is a consensus growing about what to do about the UK’s energy needs and, indeed, the security of supply.
It was interesting that the hon. Gentleman’s speech was followed by that of the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir), who spoke a lot of sense until he moved on to the pre-prepared part of his speech, which included some of the Scottish National party’s mantras about Scotland being the green powerhouse of Europe. True to form, ideology crept into his comments about nuclear energy. I give credit to the Scottish National party; it has done a lot of work on the alternative to nuclear energy and it certainly knows a lot about the subject of renewables and the other areas of generation. If it could only apply that same level-headedness and competence to the subject of nuclear power and remove the ideology, it would join the consensus that recognises that this matter is about doing something by the time we get to the energy gap.
The issue of planning and its relation to UK energy policy cannot be avoided. Of course, I accept the nature of the devolved settlement. As a former Member of the Scottish Parliament, I understand the nuances that can occur and that one can use clever political games to abuse the system if one wishes to frustrate the will of the United Kingdom. I am a Unionist and I recognise that United Kingdom policy on certain issues belongs to this House. We sometimes have to take the rough with the smooth. I do not agree with a lot of the policy produced, but I am a Unionist and that means I stand for the United Kingdom remaining together.
The Scottish National party should not pretend that the majority of the population of Scotland are against nuclear power: Scottish Government figures show that 53 per cent. of Scots polled were in favour of nuclear energy. A party that received effectively 16 per cent. of the electorate’s vote in the last Scottish Parliament election certainly does not hold a large mandate to overrule the United Kingdom. In the interest of the Union, I ask that this island gets its energy policy right. We should not play petty politics with such policy areas, and that is why I urge the Scottish National party to remove ideology from its energy policy. We should question the issues of storage and safety, and talk about the proper areas of debate, but I do not think that ideology serves us well.
The hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) gave a strong rallying cry for nuclear energy. Not surprisingly, he correctly raised the spectre of technology and how far carbon capture has gone. I used to work in the technology industry, and know that there is always the temptation to grasp the latest thing that comes along or is on the “Today” programme as if it is a silver bullet or the recipe for turning lead into gold. Time and again, we see that technologies do not always deliver the entire solution—in fact, they rarely do so. Often, such a focus can take the light off a current emerging technology. It is interesting that little is now talked about marine, tidal and wave technology. A few years ago, such technology was going to be the silver bullet to solve this problem.
When we introduce new technologies to the debate, we must be careful to recognise that technologies take years, not days, to develop, that they have to be proven and that they have rivals. If we invent carbon capture today, we think that the rest of the world might buy it. Well, that will not be the case if other countries’ Governments choose to invest in their home-made technologies, which might not be the same as ours. We must recognise that we have to have a mix not only of supply of electricity and generation but of past, present and future technologies. Let us not get too distracted by the future, because the gap is growing and time is running out.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Willie Rennie) objected to nuclear power from an ideological point of view, but he also made some strong technological and environmental arguments. I respect his views on that. He made a strong, bold play for Fife to be the centre in respect of some of the renewables. As my father is from Leven, I support that in part. However, as a Member of Parliament for the north-west, Heysham
nuclear power station is within a few minutes drive of me, so I hope that I will be forgiven for not putting all my eggs in the Fife basket.
The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) rightly made a point about consumption, which had not been mentioned before. The easiest thing that we can do today to help to close the energy gulf that might appear is to use less electricity and to use it more efficiently and wisely. It is a free hit for all of us to do that. The hon. Member for Angus pointed out the steps that he had taken—perhaps it would also help if the SNP spoke with a little less hot air. Consumption is not just a bit of the solution; it is almost half the solution. We need to bring that into the classrooms of our schools to the same extent that we bring in some of the fears surrounding other areas of science.
The Conservative party would like more to be done on decentralised electricity technology, combined heat and power, biomass, small and mid-size wind turbines, energy from waste generation, micro-hydro and solar. Barriers already in place prevent those type of generation from getting on to the grid. We need to adopt the feed-in tariff system that exists across other European countries. That system encourages such microgeneration and, indeed, helps decentralised technology to take advantage of the situation and not be blotted out by the established players in the power game.
Finally, there are the issues of affordability and justice in the system of tariffs. We would make it illegal for power companies to discriminate unfairly against consumers who have prepaid meters. It is thoroughly wrong for utility companies to do that. If we go to renewable or alternative energies, the last part of the equation is that there may be a cost impact on the consumer. We must not forget that people in fuel poverty might find it harder and harder to make the jump to energy that is supplied by technology.
I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. I believe that a consensus is building and that technology and the money invested in technology is starting to go in the right direction. However, we must not forget that, in the end, the issue is about having a mix. That means we have to put aside some of our ideology to ensure that the energy gap is closed because, as the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire has correctly said, there is a danger that, one day, we will turn on the light switch and nothing will happen.
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