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I recall that last time we debated the measure, the cost was estimated to be in the region of £20 million to £40 million a year. The lower of those estimates is not
dissimilar from the pension pot for Fred Goodwin that was waved through on the nod, without a moment’s consideration, by one of the ministerial colleagues of the Exchequer Secretary, who is not listening. As I understand it, after a brief phone call, the noble Lord Myners decided that a £16 million pension pot for the Royal Bank of Scotland’s ex-chief executive was fine. We are discussing a measure that costs—
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal): Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying quite a way in the rural areas mentioned in the amendment.
Danny Alexander: I am grateful for that guidance, Mrs. Heal. The point that I was seeking to make in the context of the overall Government spending of many billions of pounds on an economic stimulus and by highlighting one individual commitment that was entered into by a Minister was that it should be a matter of great ease for Treasury Ministers to support the scheme. It is low cost, simple and fair; it has a strong international precedent; it is the right thing to do; and I urge the House to support it.
Mr. Weir: I shall be brief. We on the Scottish national party Benches will support the amendment tonight, despite the disgraceful failure of the Liberals to support our excellent amendment on the previous vote. We are very forgiving people.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) made a good speech and very good points about public transport. When I travel on the train from London to Montrose, I can get a bus from Montrose to Brechin, where I live. That is relatively easy. Recently, my trusty old Honda—that should be rusty old Honda now; I shall certainly go for the Government’s scrappage scheme—was in the garage, and I found myself having to get from my home to my offices, which I found difficult.
One of my assistants who lives in Brechin travels to my office in Arbroath. He cannot get in for 9 am, despite those being two of the larger towns in the county. He has to go via Montrose on the bus to Angus college because that is the only public transport available. It is extremely difficult for people to travel around by public transport, even within the main towns. Outwith the main towns, up in glens of Angus—I am sure it is the same elsewhere—there is little or no bus service. Even the intercity buses that travel between the cities will not stop in many of these areas, so one has to make several connections to get to, say, Dundee or Aberdeen. There is a real problem with the few alternatives to public transport, which is why cars are so important in rural areas.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome also made an important point about the price of petrol and about petrol stations. In Brechin, there is now only one petrol station, which is attached to a small Tesco store. On the main road that runs from Dundee to Aberdeen, there is another petrol station, but its prices are astronomical because it has a captive audience, so to speak. The map that the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) produced is very interesting and shows the area that the scheme would cover. Very little of my constituency—only the remoter glens—falls into that area, but that in turn produces another problem. People living in those glens require the benefit of the proposed scheme, but there are no petrol stations.
One point that has not come out of the debate so far is that petrol stations have disappeared from many rural areas. People have to get in their cars not only to go to supermarkets and to commute to work, but to find a petrol station, because they simply do not exist in many areas any more. Many small, independent rural petrol stations have gone—effectively driven out of business by the majors. In my constituency, one will be lucky to find a petrol station that is not run either by Shell or Esso. I believe that there is one Mobil station left, but that is it; the independents have gone. Even under the proposed scheme, there would be a potential difficulty with persuading petrol stations to become involved.
The proposed scheme is good and important, but I have some queries about the wording of the amendment and, for the first time in my life, agree with the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke), because proposed new section 14G(5)(c) states that regulations will “define ‘remote rural areas’”. I understand that point, and papers may be available elsewhere, but I have a horrible memory of serving on the Committee that scrutinised what became the Energy Act 2004. In it, there was a wonderful power defining the area where it would be possible to cap charges for renewable energy. Everybody assumed that that area was the highlands and islands of Scotland and gaily passed the legislation, but we then found that it was not; it was only some of the islands of Scotland. That has been a source of contention ever since, so there is a danger in not defining exactly what one means by “remote rural areas”.
I must accept that, apart from the glens, most of my constituency does not constitute a remote rural area. There are difficulties, however, and people in those areas would have to go to other areas to find petrol in the first place. Defining “qualifying retail outlets” would also be a problem because of the lack of such outlets in the remote rural areas that form part of my constituency. The outlets that people use are not in remote areas but in the more populated, coastal area, because that is the only place where one can get petrol in Angus. There are difficulties with the amendment, but that does not mean that we will not support it, because we will.
We have heard a lot about how the situation affects individuals and families, and goods going into the area, and it is true, because the lack of an alternative to road transport means that the price of fuel feeds through to the price of everything. Everything in rural areas costs more because it costs more to transport it there, but, when intervening on the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander), I made the point that it also affects businesses that are based in, and try to transport goods out of, rural areas. Many are food-based, farming or food-processing businesses, and their products have a relatively short shelf life, so they have to move them quickly and pay the costs of doing so. The situation impacts on people’s ability to set up, run and maintain rural businesses, which are important in this period of recession, as employment in rural areas is under considerable pressure. We must maintain that employment, so anything that creates greater costs and increased pressure for such businesses is wrong. It is wrong that they face the discriminatory fuel cost before us. For all those reasons, we will support the amendment.
Things are slightly better, however. My hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr. MacNeil) discussed the Scottish Government’s wonderful scheme
for road-equivalent transport, which is doing great things for the western isles. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) was a bit sniffy about it, but I should remind him that while his party and the Labour party were in power for eight years in Scotland, there was no road-equivalent tariff and no attempt to do anything for any island. The SNP Government have made a real start, and we are making progress.
For all those reasons, we will support the amendment, despite our differences with our Liberal friends.
6.30 pm
John Thurso: When I came into the Chamber to support my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid), I did not intend to speak about the amendment, but I am brought to my feet partly by the comments of the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke), and also to say what has happened to my paper since last year.
Let me pick up two points that the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) made. First, I want to comment on the definition of the area. The map in my paper and the area chosen are used for the Scottish Executive’s definition and are available on their website. They are also used for a variety of Government definitions. If the amendment progressed to Committee, it is an accepted convention of the House that Members can work on the assumption that any paper supporting secondary legislation broadly outlines the scheme. That happens when the Government publish notes to secondary legislation that might be introduced. By producing a detailed paper, which can say far more than the limited wording of an amendment, I hoped that there would be sufficient detail to satisfy hon. Members who took an interest in those points.
The second point was the availability of rural filling stations, about which the hon. Gentleman is right. If one drives along the coast of Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, one sees many abandoned filling stations, which no longer serve fuel for many reasons. However, I deliberately chose a tight area to exclude any accusation that petrol stations that did not charge the premium might be included. I therefore acknowledge that the remedy for the injustice to those who suffer from a premium will apply only to the remoter areas. Other areas on boundaries will not benefit. I make no apology for that because I would rather get something for those most in need than try to satisfy everybody.
The hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire and I served together on the Treasury Committee—indeed, I also served with the Exchequer Secretary. Both are reasonable Members and I will therefore try a reasoned approach. The hon. Gentleman said that our amendment was sketchy. Last year, when I wrote the paper before tabling an amendment, which was similar to the one that my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute has tabled today, I circulated it to Conservative Front Benchers, wrote to the Chancellor and raised the matter in Committee and elsewhere. The paper was deliberately framed to answer questions that had been asked on many previous occasions about lack of detail. The amendment would enable Ministers to take the appropriate action and the paper proposes a reasoned scheme for achieving that. The paper defines the area and the number of people, and touches on cost. Our paper
cannot, therefore, be accused of being sketchy. Perhaps the research of the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire was a little sketchy.
I was grateful for the sympathy with which the Exchequer Secretary and her colleagues received my entreaties and for our interchange. Unfortunately, it resulted in the Treasury’s saying no—not a wholly unexpected result. Nevertheless, I am grateful for the progress of having a good discussion. The Treasury said no for two reasons: the cross-border issue and the complexity of the administration. I believe that my hon. Friends have already addressed the cross-border issue. We are talking about reducing a premium. However, the premium will always exist; therefore, it will never make sense for anybody to drive into an area where there is a premium and pay more for their petrol. No one will be encouraged to do that. The situation is quite different in Northern Ireland, where there are two wholly separate prices. I would ask the Exchequer Secretary’s officials to look into that point.
The other point is about the administration of the scheme. I believe that, without having written an entire financial accounting system, I have put forward a relatively straightforward scheme, in which the VAT system could be used to operate our proposal to ensure that any rebate given, via the wholesaler to the petrol station, would have to go to the individual motorist. I still believe that to be a sensible and viable way forward and, frankly, no more complex than many schemes run by the Government in other areas.
Mr. MacNeil: What the hon. Gentleman is really saying is: “Where there’s a will, there’s a way.” It will be noted in the highlands and islands of Scotland that, when it comes to the difficulties with rural fuel, there seems to be no will from this Labour Government.
John Thurso: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman expects me to answer that, but let me say that I have always been a far more charitable animal than his colleagues. I am therefore willing to believe in the Government and hope to the last that the natural justice of our cause will, after years of perseverance, be rewarded.
Mr. Carmichael: Thank you for allowing me to take part in this debate again this year, Mrs. Heal.
We are discussing the one issue that has generated more correspondence and representations to me in the years that I have been in the House than any other. It is an issue that underpins just about everything that happens in island communities such as those that I represent. I make no apology for returning to the issue year after year. The hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) said that we had acquired some constitutional status. I just hope that it will help us come to a resolution, because believe me, Mrs. Heal, we will keep coming back to this debate until something is done. If hon. Members cannot be bothered to listen to a bunch of teuchters going on about the cost of fuel every year, there is a perfectly simple remedy: they can do something to solve the problem.
As others have remarked, the hon. Gentleman made an accusation of sketchiness, which is one that must be addressed. I do not accept that accusation, for reasons that have been outlined eloquently and in detail, most
recently by my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), but let us take it at face value. We hear that accusation year in year out from the Conservatives; and year in year out, that is their only contribution to this debate. The conclusion that I draw, as will many of my constituents and many across the highlands and islands, is that the Conservatives make that contribution because they cannot be bothered to do anything more.
If, by some electoral freak, the next general election results in the Conservatives on the Opposition Benches replacing the conservatives on the Government Benches, absolutely nothing will change in the highlands and islands. There is no more political will among the Conservatives than there is among the Government to do anything about the problem. If I am wrong about that and if the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire has a plan to address the problem, I will cheerfully give way so that he can intervene. [ Interruption. ] I see no intervention. People will doubtless draw their own conclusions about that.
Mr. Carmichael: Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, let me give him a warning: his words will be taken down and may be used against him.
Mr. Gauke: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As I made clear in my initial remarks, hon. Members have a legitimate cause for concern. I make no criticism of the fact that they regularly—and rightly—raise the matter, but we would assist if they presented an amendment that we thought was more persuasive. We do not object in principle to what they are trying to do, but we remain unconvinced. It is up to him and his hon. Friends to set out a more detailed amendment that we could support.
Mr. Carmichael: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that highly telling intervention. He was asked what the Conservatives would do in government, and he answered by repeating the critique of our proposals that he has already offered tonight. The only conclusion that we can draw from that is that, if the Conservatives were in government, they would do absolutely nothing more. He has been given the chance to tell us what they would do, and he has repeatedly refused to do so.
The First Deputy Chairman: Order. I have allowed some debate on this point, but perhaps we could now get back to the content of the amendment, rather than discussing some future Government’s policy.
Mr. Carmichael: Far be it from me to correct the Chair, Mrs. Heal, but I think that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr. MacNeil) wanted to intervene on me.
Mr. MacNeil: My criticism of the Labour Government also applies to the Conservatives. Where there is a will there is a way, but we are clearly seeing no will from them. The only thing that I would say about the Government is that, when I raised this matter three years ago, their excuses were laughable. Their excuses are getting a little bit better, but they are still hollow.
Mr. Carmichael: Their excuses are laughable, and the joke has worn rather thin for my constituents over the years.
There was a time when I began to think that we were making a small degree of progress on this issue. On 24 April last year, I raised the matter with the Chancellor in Treasury questions. He accepted my argument, and spoke of his own personal experience. He said:
“Having filled up my car with diesel in Lewis just a couple of weeks ago, I am acutely aware of how high the petrol prices are.”
“I am struck by the variation in petrol prices across the highlands and islands; they vary substantially...the price of diesel seems to vary quite a bit depending on which side of the Minch one is on.”—[ Official Report, 24 April 2008; Vol. 474, c. 1461.]
I will return later to the point about stretches of water but that was the Chancellor accepting our argument. It does not get much better than that. The Chancellor accepted that he knew about the problem because he had a family connection with the western isles.
As a result of that exchange, I was offered—and accepted—a meeting, to which I took the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) and the president of the National Farmers Union of Scotland. I give all credit to the Minister for the conduct of that meeting. It was very open, frank, friendly and constructive. It was held on 4 June, and the conclusion was that Treasury officials would come up with an analysis of the proposal, that proper authoritative work would be done, and that we would then reach some conclusion.
Summer turned to autumn, and autumn turned to winter. On 24 November, the Minister wrote to me. I thought, “Well, this is great. We have waited five and a half months. There will surely be at least three volumes coming our way.” Instead, we got a two-page letter that did absolutely nothing other than restate the rather laughable reasons that had been used in the past to block this eminently sensible measure. I felt a bit like a child waking up on Christmas morning and finding only ashes in my stocking.
First, the observation was made that the high price of fuel was
“the result of market conditions, in particular the extra costs involved in transporting fuel to relatively inaccessible locations.”
I appreciate that, when viewed from the Treasury, Orkney and Shetland might seem like an inaccessible location, but is the Minister really telling us that the 15p a litre premium that is paid by my constituents is simply down to transportation? I do not believe that nonsense, and an instance recently brought to my attention refutes it.
6.45 pm
For some time, fuel has been supplied to us in Orkney by a company from Caithness. It is taken from Gill’s Bay, on the less fashionable side of the Pentland Firth, to St Margaret’s Hope in South Ronaldsay, on an open deck in a road tanker. For some time that option was not available, so the company in Caithness took it in a tanker from Caithness down to Aberdeen, put it on a ferry and took it to Orkney. It was able to do all that at a price lower than that charged by the local supplier. Surely we can all now accept that whatever the reason for the increased price of fuel in my constituency, it is nothing to do with road transport.
The Minister made two more points in her letter. I hope that she will explain the basis of her thinking, because what we see in these letters is not a reference to the substantial work that we were promised, but merely the politics of assertion. She wrote that a fuel duty rebate was
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