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Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con):
Does my hon. Friend agree that not only the broadcast media are suffering from inappropriate incursion as a result of the
year-on-year funding of the BBC? A few weeks ago, we had local newspaper week. The efforts of Members across the whole House defeated proposals for a local video internet site that would have put many local newspapers out of business. Does he, too, find that a matter of grave concern?
Mr. Hunt: I absolutely do. My hon. Friend is making exactly the same point as I am about the importance of plurality of provision in the media and the need for multiple sources.
I want to deal with a couple of things that the Government may say in opposing the motion. First, they may say that the BBC is already making cuts. It is true that it is halfway through a £1.9 billion efficiency programme, some of which involves redundancies, but they are not cuts because no money is being returned to licence fee payers—it is being reallocated to other services. The Government may say that we are attacking the principle of six-yearly settlements, so let me scotch that. We support the idea of multi-year settlements because it is important to protect the editorial independence of the BBC. The BBC must be impartial. It should not be subject to the political weather, but it should respond to the economic climate, and that is what this debate is about.
Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): With regard to the Jonathan Ross-Russell Brand incident—I make no defence of that escapade—will the hon. Gentleman confirm that his proposal is in no way a means of punishing the BBC for testing the boundaries of taste, as with “Jerry Springer: The Opera”, and that it is vital that the BBC should perceive no threat from politicians about its willingness to take chances in the creative industries even if it sometimes gets it wrong?
Mr. Hunt: I support creative risk taking, but socially responsible broadcasters should behave in a socially responsible way, and that was a lapse of taste and standards about which the BBC should have known better.
The events of the past two weeks have been grim for Westminster. We have learned the hard way what happens when one loses the trust of the public. That has happened partly because this place has received a level of scrutiny way beyond anything experienced by the BBC. The BBC, too, needs to maintain its bond of trust with the British people, which means understanding that when times are tough, it should not just pocket the money allocated to it in happier times. It should listen to people’s concerns and respond to the changed economic circumstances of 2009. Waiving this year’s 3 per cent. licence fee rise would do just that, and I urge wiser heads at the BBC, in the Government and in the House to respond accordingly.
5.1 pm
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Andy Burnham):
I begin with two points of solid agreement, I think, between the hon. Member for South-West Surrey (Mr. Hunt) and myself. I believe that unlike some of his colleagues, he cares about the BBC and supports the principle of the licence fee. There is a
Back-Bench Bill doing the rounds of the Opposition Benches calling for the abolition of the licence fee, which is red meat for some of his more right-wing colleagues, at least five of whom support it. However, I genuinely do not believe that he is in that camp. Also, we agree that Parliament has a responsibility to licence fee payers to ensure that the BBC is adequately funded but never over-funded.
We must always strike a balance between playing fair by the BBC, giving it sufficient funding and stability to fulfil its charter purposes, and playing fair by the licence fee payer, ensuring that the licence is both good value and affordable and taking account of the prevailing economic circumstances.
Mr. Cash: Did the Secretary of State hear a fascinating item on the “Today” programme this morning in which Sarah Montague asked the chairman of the BBC Trust some extremely relevant questions about the BBC’s pay, allowances and expenses and the rest? Did he hear the chairman’s replies, and what did he think about them?
Andy Burnham: I did hear the chairman’s replies, and I thought he made some very sensible and solid points. I also heard the shadow Secretary of State on the “Today” programme supporting his motion and calling for cuts. I then picked up my Racing Post only a few moments later and read, “Shadow Secretary backs BBC racing campaign.” He stated:
“Because I cover not just sport, but also the media, this is an issue I will be taking up with the BBC to make sure that they give this really important industry the support that it needs.”
I had to pinch myself—it was as though he were saying one thing to the Racing Post and quite another on the “Today” programme. He was saying to the former, “More money for BBC racing.” It was quite astonishing.
Mr. Hunt: Will the Secretary of State give way?
Andy Burnham: I will, but I hope the hon. Gentleman has a good answer.
Mr. Hunt: I just wanted to ask the Secretary of State whether he thinks licence fee payers’ money is better spent supporting the racing industry or supporting a £14 million taxi bill or a £15 million flying bill.
Andy Burnham: I was not making that point. I was hoping that the hon. Gentleman would have the good grace to say that he was calling for the BBC to spend more on racing on the self-same day he was on the radio calling for a 2 per cent. cut across the corporation. If he does not see any inconsistency or unfortunate timing there, I am sure others will.
Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I might be able to help the Secretary of State. The reason why the BBC is having such problems is that its remit has grown like Topsy, way beyond anything in the charter. It has to learn to cut its coat according to its cloth like everybody else. There is a limit to how much we can allow the BBC to expand, and it has gone beyond that limit.
Andy Burnham:
I take it that support for racing is off the agenda if the hon. Gentleman has his way. Hon. Members are entitled to their views, but I happen to
believe that the BBC gives good value. I well remember that, a few years ago, Opposition Members and others said that the BBC should not invest in online and new media services. However, today the BBC website is an important resource for people throughout the country, providing accurate information about activities and events in this place and beyond.
Andy Burnham: I will make progress before giving way.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Tessa Jowell), the then Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, struck precisely that careful balance between the interests of the BBC and those of licence fee payers when she set out to the House the current six-year settlement—annual nominal increases in the licence fee of 3 per cent. for the first two years; 2 per cent. in years 3, 4 and 5, and between 0 per cent. and 2 per cent. in the final year.
In the first two years—2007-08 and 2008-09—the licence fee increased by 3 per cent. Let me remind the House that the retail prices index was 4.3 per cent. and the consumer prices index was 2.3 per cent. in 2007. In 2008, RPI was 4 per cent. and CPI was 3.6 per cent. For the past two years, the BBC’s funding increases have, on the whole, been below the prevailing rate of inflation. That is an important context for today’s debate.
On the logic of the motion that the shadow Secretary of State and the Leader of the Opposition have tabled, we might have expected a bid to uprate the BBC’s position in the past two years, but I do not recall any clamour to do that. It is right not to clamour, because it is not sensible to look at any one year in isolation. However, the motion effectively asks us to do that.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): What does the Secretary of State say to Scottish licence fee payers, who face the increases although BBC commissions in Scotland come nowhere close to a population share?
Andy Burnham: I have visited Pacific Quay in Glasgow a few times. It is a major investment by the BBC, at the heart of a developing creative sector in that part of the city. There are clear commitments, which I will outline, about increasing programme spend in Scotland. However, the motion would jeopardise that.
Mr. Sheerman: I believe Labour Members share my view that the BBC is a fantastic organisation, and we will not vote for the motion. However, we are not pushovers, and when we see some of the current affairs coverage, which slavishly follows the print media rather than setting the news agenda, we get a little unhappy.
Andy Burnham: I am aware that colleagues in all parties are concerned about aspects of what the BBC does, and it is right and proper that they should present those concerns today. It is also right for the BBC to acknowledge and respond to public concerns. However, I agree with my hon. Friend’s overall point—the BBC remains good value for money, and enhances our democracy and life in this country.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) rose—
Andy Burnham: I will make some progress now, but I shall give way to both hon. Members before I finish speaking.
Today we are debating a 2 per cent. increase for the BBC. I recognise our responsibility to licence fee payers, particularly in these difficult times. However, the interests of licence fee payers do not revolve solely around cost. The quality of what they receive in return is also crucial. Overall, the BBC remains good value for money, although, as has been said, on some matters it needs to respond to changing public moods and changing times.
We need to take care, however, not to damage or destabilise one of the great British institutions, which is respected and revered around the world. I therefore profoundly disagree with the premise of the debate that the Leader of the Opposition has initiated today. His position is wrong in principle and in practice.
First, let me deal with principle. Let us be clear: the Conservative party today challenges the basis on which the BBC has been funded for decades. Multi-year funding deals are important, not only for the planning stability that they bring, but because they protect editorial independence and act as a bulwark against undue political interference.
The Leader of the Opposition said that his party
“would freeze the BBC licence fee for one year,”
“needs to be looked at year-on-year...we would freeze it this year, review it in future years.”
Let us make no mistake: the uncertainty that that would create would be disastrous for the BBC and, ultimately, for licence fee payers. Instigating annual funding settlements would fundamentally alter the BBC’s character, independence and impartiality, its relationship to Parliament and its role in public life. Would any Government be properly challenged by the BBC when the corporation’s fate was always under review and the corporation was engaged in almost never-ending debate with civil servants and Ministers about its funding?
Andy Burnham: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that he has a good answer to that point.
Mr. Hunt: Let me make it absolutely clear that the Secretary of State is distorting what the Leader of Opposition said. He did not say that we should move to annual settlements for the BBC, and that is not our party’s position, as the Secretary of State knows perfectly well. The current settlement, which started in 2007, is a six-year settlement, but the amount by which it will rise in the sixth year is to be determined at a later date. If it is so important not to settle the licence fee every year, even though it is possible to determine the amount received in the sixth year at a later date, why, given the extraordinary economic circumstances of the past six months, is it not sensible to review the position in the third year as well?
Mr. Sheerman: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has made an extensive speech in the very short time available to us, and yet back he comes with an intervention that is longer than most speeches.
Madam Deputy Speaker: I have already made a plea to hon. Members to be brief with their interventions. The intervention was on a point of debate. The shadow Secretary of State was challenged and I gave him the opportunity to respond.
Andy Burnham: I get on well with the hon. Member for South-West Surrey, but I take great exception to his saying that I am distorting a comment made by the Leader of the Opposition, so I shall read it again. The Leader of the Opposition said that the licence fee
“needs to be looked at year-on-year”.
Could the hon. Gentleman please tell me what I am distorting? That is the stated policy—year-on-year review of the licence fee—and he cannot wriggle out of it because he does not like the implications of such a statement for the BBC.
Sometimes, the old way of doing things should be swept away, as we have seen in recent days, and rightly so. But sometimes, the old ways have merit and should be kept. I thought the Conservative party understood that.
Mark Pritchard: I would like to declare an interest: I am a supporter of some parts of the BBC. Talking about old ways, does the Secretary of State agree that, to help his justification of the case for increasing the licence fee, it would be helpful if the BBC followed this Parliament in opening up its books, in particular that on the salaries of all its staff? Its staff are paid by the taxpayer, like every hon. Member in this place, so is it not about time that the BBC followed the lead of this Parliament and opened up its books to transparency and openness?
Andy Burnham: Perhaps I should have made the point to the hon. Member for South-West Surrey a moment ago that the chairman of the BBC Trust commented on that earlier today and said there had been a move towards greater transparency in recent times. However, I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman publishes all the salaries of his staff, and it is not necessarily right just to say that everything should be in the public domain. Let us have appropriate transparency and accountability. I do not necessarily disagree in principle, but let us ensure that things are done appropriately.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): It is important that the BBC does not get too big for its boots—indeed, the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport was recently critical of BBC Worldwide. The demands on the BBC are growing with, for instance, the current discussions about Channel 4’s funding gap. What would be the effect on sensible business negotiations if the BBC’s settlement was simply ripped up in the way proposed?
Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point and I will deal with precisely that issue now. I said that the Conservatives were wrong in principle, but they are wrong in practice, too. As well as causing a loss of independence, annual funding would take away the stability and certainty that a broadcaster needs to operate successfully. The BBC would lose its capacity to plan for the long term, commission the highest quality content and invest in the technologies of the future, such as the iPlayer, which so many of us benefit from and enjoy.
Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Will the Secretary of State give way?
Andy Burnham: I must make progress.
More specifically, the cuts that the hon. Member for South-West Surrey is today calling for could have the direct effect of damaging programme making, draining funding from the creative economy at a time when other revenue sources are drying up and undermining the successful delivery of projects of importance to the future of this country.
Let me remind the House that, within the funding settlement agreed in 2007, the BBC has already made major efficiencies and is mid-way through a programme to save a total of £1.9 billion during the current licence fee period via an annual efficiency target of 3 per cent. Pay and bonuses for senior managers have been frozen for 18 months. Posts have been reduced by 7,200 since 2005, and there are a further 1,200 to go as part of further savings.
Alongside this, the BBC was charged with delivering changes of critical importance. First, out of funds in the six-year settlement, it was asked to play a crucial role in the national digital switchover project by providing practical help, through the help scheme, to ensure that the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our community can make the switch.
Secondly, over the next two years, the BBC is relocating 2,500 staff to MediaCity in Salford, helping to form the first purpose-built media community in the UK, and permanently rebalancing media power in this country away from the capital and into the regions. This will bring huge benefits to the economy in the north-west, estimated at £1.5 billion and 15,500 jobs.
Two further asks of the BBC have emerged since the current licence fee was settled. In response to calls from colleagues in this House, the BBC Trust has committed the BBC to making significant increases in its programme making in Scotland and Wales so that, by 2016, 50 per cent. of network productions will be made outside London.
David Cairns: My right hon. Friend is a great champion of broadcasting in the nations and regions. He has already mentioned the £182 million studio at Pacific Quay in Glasgow, the finest studio of its type in Europe. Is he aware that the BBC is responsible for 85 per cent. of all TV production across the whole of Scotland, and that original production from Scotland for the networks is increasing after years of going down? Would he like to speculate on the impact that a big cut in the licence fee would have on the progress that we have seen over the past couple of years?
Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Having visited a couple of times, I know that there is a developing, but quite fragile, creative economy in that part of Scotland. There is a tendency to claim that this is all about bloated BBC pay and executives, but a point that is often missed is that much of the money goes to independent producers and small start-up creative businesses in Scotland, as my hon. Friend and I saw when we visited. That is a crucial source of funding that would be severely missed if it were to be reined in.
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