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The House divided: Ayes 267, Noes 219.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGrady, Mr. Eddie
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Christine
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Geraldine
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Steve McCabe and
Mr. Dave Watts
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howell, John
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Laws, Mr. David
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Bill Wiggin and
Mr. Stephen Crabb
Question accordingly agreed to.
Lords amendment 1 disagreed to.
Lords amendments 2 to 6 disagreed to.
Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 7.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 10 and 15.
Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The amendments in this group were Government amendments, tabled in the other place. They relate to property owners in business improvement districts in areas where a business rate supplement is in place. The amendments arose as a result of debates very early on in the life of the Bill, and I hope that hon. Members will find it useful if I take a step back for a moment and recap on how the amendments emerged. That will help to provide some context, so that hon. Members can see the rationale for the approach taken in the amendments.
One of the things that struck me as I familiarised myself with the issues raised by the Bill is the genuine cross-party support for business improvement districts, and that has been reinforced this afternoon. There was real concern that the introduction of the BRS might have a negative effect on the future viability of BIDs. I understand that one of the main concerns of BID practitioners and business supporters of BIDs is that if BID levy payers face a BRS on top of any existing levy, rate payers may be inclined to vote against BID proposals when they come up for renewal. That is a particular issue in London, where, I gather, 14 of the 20 existing BIDs will come up for renewal ballots by 2012.
As a way of addressing those concerns, my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), whose expertise on such matters is legendary, tabled amendments in Committee and on Report to give property owners more of a say in BIDs and to enable the contributions to a BID to be spread between occupiers and owners. That could act as an effective offset for occupiers against their BRS liability. Although those amendments were withdrawn, they provided the opportunity for the House to have a meaningful debate on the issue, and the previous Minister for Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (John Healey), agreed to discuss the matter further with interested parties. Baroness Valentine tabled amendments on the same issue in Grand Committee in the other place on 18 May. The purpose of those amendments was to enable BID proposers or companies to decide whether property owners should be involved in, and have a chance to vote on, BID proposals for an area.
The amendments moved by the Government in the House of Lords on Report addressed the same broad issues as the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich and Baroness Valentine. The amendments that we are considering make arrangements for a new type of BID, to be known as a BRS-BID. It has that acronym to distinguish it from the current BID arrangements. That new type of BID could be established in areas where both a BID and BRS exist, and would allow for the owners of property to be involved in BID arrangements. It will be for those proposing BIDs, or existing BID companies, to decide whether they wish to involve property owners in their BID arrangements. Where they wish to, they can, but it will not be compulsory to do so.
The amendments enable revenues from property owners to be used as additional income for a BID project, or to be used to offset the contributions of those rate payers who are liable for both the BID levy and the BRS. The amendments also offer flexibility; the revenue stream from property owners could be used to fund a different project, quite separate from the BID project. Where BID companies or those proposing BIDs elect to involve property owners, there must be a ballot of those potentially liable for the levy. It will not be possible for a BRS-BID to be established unless there has been a successful ballot on the proposals. That mirrors the current arrangements for BIDs.
In crafting the amendments, we have taken on board many of the views expressed both in this House and the other place, and the views expressed by those with an intimate knowledge of the existing BID system. However, property owner involvement in BIDs is new territory, and it raises a number of complex and detailed issues that will need to be resolved before BRS-BIDs can come into being. The new schedule 2 contains a number of powers that will allow the Government to include the detail on the BRS-BIDs in secondary legislation. The regulations will deal with issues such as who should be considered a property owner, how the rateable value of non-domestic properties should be attributed to property owners for the purposes of the double-lock ballot, and the detailed arrangements for ballots. We will consult on the detailed arrangements needed to enable BRS-BIDs to be put in place.
One concern that was raised yesterday in the other place was about the impact that the amendments could have on billing authorities, which will play a key part in BRS-BIDs. I can reassure the House that the consultation that we will carry out will be accompanied by an impact assessment, which will address the potential impacts on different sectors, including billing authorities. The consultation will give stakeholders the opportunity to make their views known, including on the impact assessment, and we will consider carefully all responses before finalising the regulations that are needed before BRS-BIDs can come into operation.
I should clarify one specific point. I have already said that the amendments can apply only in those areas where a BRS is in place. There has been a debate in the other place about whether it would be possible to extend the provisions to BIDs in all areas. I understand the argument that, if these amendments are good enough for BRS areas, they should be good enough for areas where a BRS is not in place. It may be helpful if I clarify the position.
We have pursued the matter with the House authorities, who have confirmed that it would not be possible to include amendments to the Bill to deal with the inclusion of property owners in BIDs outside a BRS area. The issue centres on whether an amendment would be relevant. The Bill has a single purpose, which is to introduce the BRS scheme. The Bill refers to BIDs, but only to the extent that they are affected by the introduction of BRS. However, any stand-alone amendments to the BIDs regime, unconnected to the introduction of BRS, would not be considered relevant.
The principle behind the amendments was warmly welcomed by the other place and was widely supported by the House during the earlier stages of the Bill. The Government listened to the representations that were made, both from within Parliament and from outside, and agreed with them. That is why we introduced the provisions in the other place. Taking that into account, and with the explanation that I have given, I invite the House to agree to the amendments.
Robert Neill: I am glad to say that on this occasion, there is a degree of consensus. As those who served on the Bill Committee know, the Opposition parties were very interested in the proposal from the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), and I am delighted to see that it has broadly appeared in the amendments. That is progress.
The Minister is right to say that some detail may yet need to be bottomed out, but the concept seems to deal with a potential anomaly. I wish the Government had been persuaded of the fact that the benefits of BIDs, which I endorse, include a ballot in all cases. It is ironic that this set of amendments includes a compulsory ballot. I wish that were a general application. It is a step in the right direction.
I hope that when the Minister replies, she may be able to tell us the time frame for the consultation and how we can ensure the maximum ability to make changes in the regulations that will set out the guidelines, and so on. I am conscious that although their lordships welcomed the proposals, they expressed some concern about the size and complexity of very late amendments to the Bill. That is no fault of the right hon. Gentleman, who has been a proponent of BIDs, but it made for some interesting overnight reading of the Official Report of the other place.
I hope the Minister will take on board the comment that if we are to get it right, we must have the ability to revisit matters of detail that may not yet have been completed. I welcome the overall attempt to plug what might otherwise have been a weakness in the legislation. We support the amendments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I now have to announce the result of a Division deferred from a previous day. On the motion relating to external service, the Ayes were 305 and the Noes were 160, so the Question was agreed to.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
Mr. Raynsford:
I congratulate the Government on agreeing in another place this series of amendments, which provide a satisfactory and elegant solution to a real problem, which was the potential adverse impact of BRS on BIDs in areas where BIDs are in existence or
due to be brought into existence in the foreseeable future, and where a ballot could well have been lost because those paying the BRS levy might have decided that it would not be fair for them also to have to pay an additional levy to support the BID.
I shall not go over the history. My hon. Friend the Minister explained that it was a subject of considerable debate in the House earlier this year when we first considered the Bill. The amendment introduced in the Lords goes further than the one that I moved, and I welcome the way in which that has been improved. Specifically, it tackles the issue of areas where BIDs are proposed but not yet in existence, whereas my amendment was limited to areas where BIDs were in existence. I recognise that that was a defect, which the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) highlighted in the debate in the House.
I acknowledged that at the time so I am delighted that the Government have found a formulation that allows the new provision to cover areas where BIDs are proposed but not yet in existence. It also includes provision to reassure tenants that the owner levy will not be passed on to them through rent. Again, that was a cause of some concern among BID levy payers—that the landowner would try to pass on the full cost of the landowner levy.
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