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Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am more than happy to look into the fast-track system. However, the total number of proposals relating to properties in ports since November is 235 and, overall, 540 proposals have been made over the lifetime of the 2005 list. However, I am more than happy to look further at that fast-track system.
To go back to my original point, we are talking about a point of principle to do with the business rate system. It is about fairness. To repeat what I have said, determining liability takes us back to the issue of when the liability started, in 2005 or 2010, as it will do under the BRS system and in future. People who have already paid their business rates in full would be disadvantaged if we changed the system. That is why the decision was made to put in place the deferral system, which allows an unprecedented eight years in which to pay.
Mr. Austin Mitchell: I fear that what the Minister said was not correct. The principle of the argument that we are urging applies to port operators. The principle of the previous legislation, as set out in regulation 5(3) of statutory instrument No. 2303 of 1989, was that all operational land of a harbour or dock undertaking was to be treated as a separate hereditament, irrespective of whether the property would otherwise form several separate hereditaments, or part of a single, larger hereditament. That principle was confirmed in the legal action that the Valuation Office Agency began against Grimsby Fish Dock Enterprises in 2002. One cannot split a single hereditament in the case of docks, or when the owner controls the access. That is what is happening. There are attempts to split the docks into separate hereditaments, and those are the ones—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That is a long intervention. The hon. Gentleman has made his point.
Sarah McCarthy-Fry: My hon. Friend has the measure of me on that. I do not have the details of those regulations.
I go back to the policy that a business should pay its fair amount of rates from the point at which it occupies the property, and that all businesses should be treated in a manner consistent with fair competition. That is the principle on which we disagree with the Lords amendments, but the reason, as I said, is one of financial privilege.
Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 11.
The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 227.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Caton, Mr. Martin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Engel, Natascha
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morgan, Julie
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Christine
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. John Heppell and
Mrs. Sharon Hodgson
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorries, Nadine
Drew, Mr. David
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Laws, Mr. David
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonnell, John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simpson, David
Smith, Sir Robert
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Bill Wiggin and
Mr. Stephen Crabb
Question accordingly agreed to.
Lords amendment 11 disagreed to.
Lords amendment 12 disagreed to.
Lords amendments 13 and 14 disagreed to.
Amendment (a) made in lieu of amendments 1 to 6, 13 and 14.
Lords amendment 15 agreed to , with Commons privileges waived .
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83H(2)), That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 11 and 12;
That Lyn Brown, Natascha Engel, Sarah McCarthy-Fry, Robert Neill and Dan Rogerson be members of the Committee;
That Sarah McCarthy-Fry be the Chairman of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee.
That the Committee do withdraw immediately. —( Mr. Blizzard .)
Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
Green Energy (Definition and Promotion Bill) (Money)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
5.17 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I beg to move,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Green Energy (Definition and Promotion) Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State, and
(2) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of that Fund.
The motion concerns the private Member’s Bill promoted by the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth)— [ Interruption. ]
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. May I ask that Members who are leaving the Chamber do so quickly and quietly?
Mr. Kidney: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on choosing for his Bill such an important subject as green energy, and particularly on his focus on improving the take-up of microgeneration measures. I also congratulate him on securing such a broad and cross-party coalition of support for his Bill. On Second Reading, the previous Minister with responsibility for energy, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O’Brien), welcomed the Bill on behalf of the Government. In his speech, he said that the Government support the key principles underpinning the Bill. The House approved the Bill’s Second Reading, and it therefore proceeded into Committee.
The Government see the Bill as a valuable opportunity to promote microgeneration through the definition of “green energy”.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I warmly welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new responsibilities. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] He will hear that the whole House echoes that welcome.
I also greatly welcome the Bill. On microgeneration, has the hon. Gentleman given any further thought to the definition of hydropower, which is still an outstanding issue? The Bill is a potential vehicle to put right an anomaly that is preventing people from investing in micro-hydropower. During his very short time in the Department, has he given any thought to rectifying that anomaly?
Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He will know that the Bill is about micro wind turbines and air source heat pumps. It requires the Secretary of State to undertake consultation about the future of the microgeneration strategy, so I commend to the hon. Gentleman the idea of his taking part in that consultation and making his valuable point. The matter is in my mind as I speak.
There remain a number of barriers to the continued deployment of small-scale renewable and low-carbon energy sources, hence the Government’s review of the strategy. The Bill will be a useful means of helping to
implement that strategy once the review is completed. It sets a strategic framework within which we can remove barriers and continue the development of a crucial market. For example, the Government are keen to ensure that we are in the best possible position to capitalise on the introduction of the forthcoming financial incentive regimes for both renewable heat and small-scale low-carbon electricity.
Work to strengthen the Bill and fit it into the strategy is ongoing, and I look forward to its completion in Committee. However, I assure hon. Members that in considering that work, the Government do not intend to change the main thrust or sentiment of the Bill, which is the promotion of green energy. We very much support that.
The motion before the House is the usual money resolution for a private Member’s Bill that may create a charge on public funds. The Bill does not directly give rise to additional expenditure. However, the House’s approval is required to accommodate any costs that may arise from the further development of the microgeneration strategy. The details of that strategy, including any expenditure, will be the subject of public consultation in line with requirements in the Bill.
I hope that hon. Members agree that it is therefore necessary and desirable for the House to approve the money resolution. Any reliance on it for spending public money will be in accordance with a strategy that will have been approved following public consultation. There is no immediate commitment of public spending, and there will be ample opportunity to comment on the development of future policy. I therefore commend the motion to the House.
5.21 pm
Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): We on the Conservative Benches warmly welcome the fact that the Government support the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth). We have a clear vision of a distributed energy economy, and microgeneration will be essential to that. My hon. Friend has a formidable record of promoting pragmatic green causes such as this, and we look forward to the Bill making its swift and positive way through Committee.
5.22 pm
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