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Mark Durkan:
My hon. Friend refers to the chair of the inquiry, who has form. In Northern Ireland, he was used to report on the security implications of the Castlereagh inquiry. Then we had a classic exercise in misdirection, because that report had nothing to do with the events of the break-in, what lay behind it or anything else. It was used as a vehicle for an ulterior agenda to change intelligence policing in Northern Ireland and break the Patten model for policing. Sir John
Chilcot, if he was a business, would not be in “Yellow Pages” under headings such as “Independent” or “Challenging”.
Jeremy Corbyn: I think the Member for Foyle is telling us in the vernacular that the chairman of the inquiry has form in this matter.
Governments set up inquiries for two reasons: either to cover something up or to get to the truth. I suspect that this inquiry is all about diversion and ensuring that we do not get to the questions of culpability or the details of how this decision came about and why Parliament was presented with the information that it was.
I shall conclude with this point, as my time is almost up. Parliament can make a decision tonight to ask the Government to come back with a better proposal. That is all the Opposition motion says. I would support and welcome that, because it would give us the opportunity to have the kind of inquiry that Members on both sides and with all points of view on the war have asked for. I suspect that we might be getting the opposite, which is an inquiry with terms of reference that allow it to operate in secret and on Privy Council rules, that do not give it the power of subpoena or inquisition, and that do not give it the power to point to the legal responsibility for going to war.
As sure as night follows day, whatever decision we make, the demand for the truth will be there and the legal process will be there. Eminent lawyers such as Philippe Sands will not give up, and I suspect that many of the protagonists in the war will at some point end up in the International Court of Justice at The Hague—not because of a process of indiction, but because those of us who believe in international law believe in its protecting us from war, not taking us to war. That is why we must get to the truth, and I hope that we get there tonight.
6.30 pm
Dr. Liam Fox (Woodspring) (Con): This has been an excellent debate, and has featured some outstanding contributions. A wide range of issues have been discussed: the terms of reference, the question of oaths, the question of public versus private hearings, the membership of the committee, blame apportionment, and the concept of an interim report.
Let me begin with developments that I think we all welcome. The scope of the committee will allow it to deal with the events leading up to the war, the conduct of the war itself, and the post-war reconstruction. That is a good scheme. The time frame now goes back to 2001, and we welcome that. If we are to believe what we have heard today, most of the committee’s deliberations will now take place in public; private hearings will be held only when national security is involved.
A point on which almost all of us can agree is that—as the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) put it—this has been an object lesson in how not to set up an inquiry. The hon. Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn), with characteristic candour, said that he was embarrassed by the bungling of the Government. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said that the inquiry would be in disarray, and that if it did not command all-party support in this House it would be difficult for it to command respect in the country. There was a great deal of disquiet about what has happened.
We could have had consensus on the nature, scope, membership and terms of reference of the inquiry if the Prime Minister had engaged in proper consultation. A number of speakers drew attention to the contrast with what happened in the case of the Franks report. The Prime Minister has had limited contacts with other political leaders and Committee Chairmen. With an important issue such as this—on which there has been genuine division in the country, mirrored by division here in Parliament—consensus is all the more important, but the Prime Minister seems to have lacked the personal capability, humility and skills to seek consensus on such a momentous issue. Perhaps that is the fatal character flaw that condemns his Government to ultimate defeat.
One of the key questions that raised a great deal of passion was the basis on which evidence should be given. There was an interesting and, indeed, passionate discussion of whether it should be given under oath. I must confess that, having listened to a number of learned Members setting out their rather different cases, I am not entirely sure what the legal status of oaths would be in the inquiry as it is currently proposed. The Minister should clarify that. There was widespread concern—including that expressed by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox)—that unless evidence was given under oath, the credibility of the inquiry itself could be fatally undermined. Having heard strong feelings in the House, what do the Government intend to do? They have changed their minds on a number of other issues over the past nine days.
On 15 June, the Prime Minister said, on the issue of public and private hearings,
“evidence will be heard in private. I believe that that will also ensure that evidence given by serving and former Ministers, military officers and officials is as full and candid as possible.”—[ Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 23.]
The intention was clear: it was to minimise the scrutiny in public of some of the most senior Ministers who were due to give evidence. We have now seen a U-turn—a welcome U-turn, it must be said—not least because of the motion that we tabled.
The most impressive speech was made by the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who listed a number of substantial questions that the inquiry should consider. He pointed out that many of the most politically controversial issues did not involve national security and could therefore be discussed in public, and that there was absolutely no reason other than the politics for that not to happen.
However, it was the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) who really started to shed some light on the issue. She asked whether Sir John Chilcot had been consulted in advance of the Prime Minister’s statement. The Foreign Secretary replied that Sir John had had no objection to the Prime Minister’s statement, but that in the light of the Prime Minister’s subsequent letter it had been decided to hold some more public hearings. That was a bullseye for the hon. Lady.
As many of these hearings as possible should be held in public, of course. The Foreign Secretary rightly said that there are always those who make up their mind in advance of the outcome and that they would describe any inquiry, public or private, as a whitewash, but the key point is that the brighter the spotlight, the more
forensic the process and the more transparent the inquiry, the more the public will be able to make an objective decision about what they see before them; and, frankly, only fools and knaves will fear the truth in this matter.
Andrew Mackinlay: The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister are now petrified that, as some of the hearings will be in public, the inquiry will inevitably—and rightly, I think—run for longer, and that the members of it who have been invited under the old order of seven or eight days ago might say, “Well, I’m not prepared to give up a year or more of my life attending for three days a week.” They will have to attend, too, whereas when a committee is held behind closed doors, nobody knows who is, and is not, in attendance at any given time.
Dr. Fox: The hon. Gentleman knows other Labour Members better than I do, and on this occasion I am willing to bow to his judgment as to exactly what their motives may be.
There is widespread concern about the narrowness of the membership of the committee, and particular concern about the lack of military representation. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) hit the nail on the head when he said that there must be someone with senior military experience in order to have credibility with the military and beyond, and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) echoed that point in his speech.
The committee is, after all, looking into a war—its conduct, its manning and equipment, and the tactics employed. It will also have to look at the interaction between our war-fighting capability and our reconstruction capability. If it has no senior military membership, how can it fully interpret the military evidence given to it? For example, we have had inquests into the deaths of service personnel that have put the blame on the late procurement of body armour. The inference was that that occurred late because the Secretary of State at the time did not want to send a political signal that the Government had already decided to embark on war in Iraq. Few more serious charges than that can be levelled at a Minister or Government. Those issues will have to be dealt with very clearly and forensically in the inquiry, because we need to learn lessons as we are still at war in Afghanistan.
Let me give the House one other example. There are lessons that we need to learn from the events that led up to Operation Charge of the Knights in Basra about how we handled intelligence and how it was interpreted. To summarise, those who were there say that, ultimately, the decision was that we were “in Palermo, not Beirut”; in other words, we were dealing with criminality rather than insurgency. We know, however, that the intelligence coming upwards was that it was an Iranian-inspired, religious-driven insurgency, so how did we come to the conclusion that we reached? How did we get ourselves into that corner? Was it the result of a failure to interpret intelligence? If so, we must be very concerned about that for Afghanistan. Or was there in any way some interference with the process, so that the conclusion that was reached was the one that was most favourable
to the Government at the time? These are very serious questions, because they affect the well-being of our armed forces currently in theatre.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) made an impassioned plea for there to be one or more political figures on the committee. As he said, it was politicians in this House who voted to go to war in Iraq, so we are intrinsically involved by our own actions and decisions. It would at the least be of benefit to have senior figures on the committee who understand how government works and how decisions are taken, if the committee is to make a proper evaluation of the evidence.
We were told that no MPs would be on the committee because we would be partisan. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) said in his opening speech, the members who have been named already are hardly disinterested bystanders. Sir Lawrence Freedman has written extensively on the war in Iraq, and Sir Roderic Lyne has not only commentated on the war but was involved in the efforts to secure a second United Nations resolution ahead of the war. These are not non-partisan, disinterested figures. If they are not, why are Members of Parliament being excluded from the process, when we are the ones who carry the can for the decision that was taken by the vote?
There was a lot of debate about whether we should have an interim report, and there is a widespread belief that the timing of that report is designed to minimise adverse comment about current or former Labour Ministers during a general election period. As the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife pointed out, this Government and Prime Minister seem incapable of distinguishing between Government embarrassment and the national interest. There is no reason why we cannot have an interim report or reports, depending on how it is carried out. The House needs to be given an assurance tonight that the committee will be able to issue such reports during the course of its deliberations, if it believes that it is in the public interest to do so.
The other issue that emerged today and surprised many of us was the question of apportioning blame. The Prime Minister said on 15 June:
“The committee will not set out to apportion blame”.—[ Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 24.]
Many Members, on both sides of the House, asked, “Why not?” If a distinguished group such as that which will carry out the inquiry comes to the conclusion that political or policy failures occurred, and that individuals had culpability, by what possible sense of justice or decency could the Government set the terms of reference in a way that delivers no blame, even if blame is justified? Today the Foreign Secretary gave us a new line, when he said that the inquiry could praise or blame anyone it likes. That is another U-turn, and one for the Minister to confirm when he speaks.
Two things will stick in my mind from today’s debate. The first is that in a debate of such momentous importance we reached a point at which there was no Minister on the Front Bench. That was hugely disrespectful to the House on an issue on which it is trying to hold the Government to account.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, from the opening speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks, a single common thread has run
through the debate. It was well expressed by the hon. Member for Cannock Chase and it echoed from Carmarthen, Billericay and Torridge and West Devon. It was that this House should have ownership of the terms of reference of this inquiry, not the Prime Minister. That point cut across party politics and it gave voice to a growing belief that this House has been neutered by Executives of both colours over a period of time.
This should be a preliminary debate, because we should have a commitment that we will have a further opportunity to discuss this issue on a substantive motion setting out the terms of reference of the inquiry. Whether that commitment is forthcoming or not will determine not only whether many Labour Members will vote for the motion, but whether the Prime Minister’s much trumpeted transparency is real. Or has he learned nothing from the serial own goals that seem to be the hallmark of his premiership?
6.43 pm
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Bill Rammell): We have had an exceedingly good debate. It is clear that Members in all parts of the House have genuine concerns and convictions on this subject, whatever view they take.
Earlier today, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary set out—rightly, in my view—why we are having an inquiry into the Iraq war and why we believe that Sir John Chilcot and his committee have the remit, the support and the authority to fulfil that objective. Let me be clear: if we are serious about learning lessons from the Iraq war, we need an independent, strategic review to be conducted with full access to Government documents—
Andrew Mackinlay: Yes: independent.
Bill Rammell: As my hon. Friend says, the inquiry needs to be independent, and, in the way that it is structured, it will be independent. It will have the force of that independence and it will get at the facts. That is what we propose. It is not about indicting individuals, but about understanding collectively what went right as well as what went wrong, and ensuring that we all learn lessons—Government, Parliament, the armed forces, police and development and humanitarian experts alike.
Dr. Fox: The Minister says the inquiry is not about indicting individuals. The Foreign Secretary said that the committee can praise or blame who it likes. Will it be able to apportion blame to individuals?
Bill Rammell: I shall deal with that point directly. I assure the hon. Gentleman that he will get a response.
In the time that I have available, I shall respond to as many of the points that have been made as possible. Let me start with those made by the shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague). I listened seriously and intently to what he said. His speech was long on critique, but short on substantive differences with the Government on where we are today. He acknowledged that, since a week ago on Monday, the Government have consulted; he said that we had listened and that the outcome was what he had been calling for. If the accusation is that, as a Government, we have listened and moved, I plead guilty. I make no apology for saying that. I say that because the inquiry
matters. It is crucial that we get it right. It was therefore right, in my view, that we listened to the views and concerns that were being expressed. I want to leave no Member in any doubt about whether we have listened.
The right hon. Gentleman also stated his view on an interim report. Sir John Chilcot has made it clear that he does not rule that out, but, to quote what he said in his letter in response to the Prime Minister:
“the causes and effects of particular phases of these events cannot simply be divided up so as to separate clearly one period from another.”
Nevertheless, Chilcot is not ruling an interim report out, and nor are the Government. There is, however, a genuine difficulty that should be overcome.
Mr. Cox: What has the Minister to fear from submitting proposed terms of reference to this House on a substantive motion for full debate and scrutiny? Will he answer that question?
Bill Rammell: I am making it clear how we have listened and responded, how the inquiry will be conducted and how the views that have been expressed have been addressed.
The shadow Foreign Secretary also accused us of prohibiting the apportionment of blame. I do not think that that is the case. We have given the inquiry the widest possible terms of reference and the committee will decide for itself what issues to focus on. The Prime Minister has made it clear that this is not about civil or criminal liability, but beyond that, it is a matter for the inquiry to decide when it comes to write its report.
Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman is saying what the Prime Minister made clear. What he made clear on 15 June is that
“The committee will not set out to apportion blame”.—[ Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 24.]
Those are the words of the Prime Minister, so how can the Minister say that the Prime Minister did not intend that to be the outcome?
Bill Rammell: There is a problem in our political system. When Governments listen to the concerns that have been expressed to them, respond to them and alter their actions accordingly, they are criticised for inconsistency. I think that it is right in the circumstances that the Government have genuinely listened to the views that have been expressed and responded to them. That is what we are trying to do.
Andrew Mackinlay: What about the oath? Answer the point about the oath.
Bill Rammell: I will come on to the issue of the oath.
Mr. Hague: Can we be absolutely clear, for the avoidance of all further doubt, that the Prime Minister’s statement, quoted a moment ago by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), that the inquiry would not set out to apportion blame is no longer operative and no longer part of Government policy?
Bill Rammell: There has never been a ban on what the inquiry can consider. Compared with any other inquiry, this one has one of the widest remits possible. It will be able to consider all those issues.
Mr. Jenkin: Will the Minister give way?
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