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Barbara Keeley: The shadow Leader of the House had a great deal more time than has been allocated to me. I want to give detailed answers to the points raised. If I cannot, they will need to follow in the next couple of days, or be put in writing to the hon. Members who asked the questions.
My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) talked about this being a time of crisis and of opportunity. He also talked about the too-close relationships between Members and those who were administering the system. As he rightly said in supporting the Bill, we have two days in Committee to discuss, to press and to probe, but he is also right to say that this is no time for parliamentary drag. We have ceded authority on the matter, and we should accept that.
The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) talked about representative government and whether the House mirrored the people it is elected to serve. I must correct his view that no Members of this House played a role in the information technology revolution, to choose one example from the long list that he gave. I thought that that was an astonishing thing to say. For a number of years before I entered this place, I worked in a variety of roles for one of the largest IT companies in the world, latterly as a field systems engineering manager. In fact, of the 2005 intake of Labour MPs, not only were a majority women, but a majority were people like me, who had worked in other roles before we came to this House—who had worked in IT, who had run their own companies, and who had been teachers. One had been a miner, and many others had other roles in our society. We need not have everything, when it comes to outside interests. People can have a career before they come to this place.
Alan Duncan: I have a simple question. The Minister construes the argument on privilege in terms of why privilege could be released to prosecute Members, but does she not accept that the reverse is also true? If that freedom is permitted, could it not end up constraining people who are witnesses in Committee, and could not what is said in this House be pertinent to court cases, causing enormous problems?
Barbara Keeley: No. We do not accept that. We will return to the topic time and again over the next couple of days.
The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) spoke about voting against the Bill on matters of timetabling, and referred to the guidance and the distinction between gifts and donations. My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House has said that there is a clear distinction between payments for which the Member is contracted to provide a service, and gifts and donations. If the guidance is not clear to Members, we can revisit that, but that is no reason not to move forward on the Bill. We can always redraft guidance.
The right hon. Gentleman asked a large number of questions, which we will cover when we debate clause 11. Any future change to the role of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards would be made only with the agreement of the Speaker and after an affirmative vote by the House, following consultation with both the
Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and the Committee that the right hon. Gentleman chairs. We will return to the issues that he raised about privilege on clause 10.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) raised issues to which we shall return over the next two days, on enforcement and the need for safeguards. The new Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority’s powers are set out in clause 8(1), such as paying back wrong payments and correcting the register.
The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) urged us to spend more time on the Bill, as did a great many other hon. Members in their contributions this evening. I refer to the statements of the party leaders. The Leader of the Opposition said:
“We will back the establishment of a Parliamentary Standards Authority to supervise all matters relating to Members of Parliament’s pay and expenses”,
and the leader of the Liberal party said:
“I also strongly welcome the move towards a Parliamentary Standards Authority and an MPs’ code of conduct. These changes should be implemented immediately”—[ Official Report, 10 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 799-803.]
That is the basis on which we started to move forward.
My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) said that there was no mad hurry for the legislation, and argued for getting rid of redactions when we publish claims and receipts, and for exposing addresses. She also mentioned the complexity and the number of Committees with different functions. The issue of reducing redactions is being examined by the Members Estimate Committee, and I hope we will be able to publish the 2008-09 claims with much greater transparency. The complexity of structures can be reviewed in the weeks and months ahead, but it is important that we move to independent regulation and administration of our allowances.
The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who chairs the Justice Committee, spoke about clause 7 and expressed concern about due process and the human rights dimension. Despite his concerns, he said that he could see a case for setting up IPSA during the parliamentary recess. We must press ahead urgently. The right hon. Gentleman raised the subject of a privileges Act, which we could consider.
The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) argued for more time, as did many other hon. Members. There will be time to discuss the matter that he raised—the separation of the investigation function from the rest of the PSA. We can return to that. There is a strong determination that the investigation function should be separate from the PSA’s other functions.
The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) referred to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, and argued that cross-party discussions to forge the Bill were not the right way forward. He gave the example of Congress not setting its own remuneration, as we do not and will not do. There is no reason why the new developments should not interact, so the reviews by the SSRB on pay and pensions can interact with the new structures that we are setting up.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory:
The point about the Congress is that it does set its remuneration, but that comes into effect after an election. Congress is self-governing. It
does not give away those powers. It makes its own decisions, but under constitutional amendment that takes effect after an election. I advocate the same system here.
Barbara Keeley: Indeed, but Congress has more regular elections than we do, so it is easier for Congress to decide the matter when an election is due fairly soon.
The hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) re-organised his diary to be present, and he made a wide-ranging contribution on the role of an MP. Many other Members spoke about the role of an MP. I disagree with the point that being an MP is not a full-time job, and that an MP’s pay is not a salary. The hon. Gentleman and I—
Barbara Keeley: The hon. Gentleman and I entered the House on the same day, and I have always regarded representing my constituents as a full-time job, alongside the work that all MPs do—
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Will the Minister give way?
Barbara Keeley: No, I shall not give way at the moment. The key— [ Interruption. ]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gray, it is very clear that the Minister is not giving way. Stay in your seat and listen. [ Interruption. ] I have made the position very clear. It does not require comment from you, Mr. Gray. Stay in your seat; listen to the Minister.
Barbara Keeley: We will probably return to some of the points that were made in the debate, but, as I was saying, I regard my job as an MP as a full-time job, and I have done since I entered the House. It is dangerous to start saying that we can adequately do the job alongside other tasks. Since I have been a Member, I have been a member of a Select Committee and taken a specialist interest in various subjects, such as health and social care. Clearly, there is more than the constituency to represent, and now I have a ministerial role, too.
The hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said that he supports the principle of independent regulation, and he raised a number of issues that the Parliamentary Reform Committee, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), will look into. In fact, the latter part of the debate went into many issues that the new Parliamentary Reform Committee can look into. The hon. Member for North Essex, again, said that he did not think that being an MP was a full-time job; I disagree.
My hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made a very important point that we would all do well to remember as we near the end of the debate: we should consider the worth of Parliament, show the public that we are not just taking care but that we do care, and set up structures in a way that he called being “Kelly-ready”. That might be another phrase that we can take forward.
The hon. Members for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) and for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) talked about the professionalisation of Parliament, to
which other Members had referred, and the separation of powers, and they were even concerned about judges flexing their muscles. I think that we will return to those aspects of the debate over the next couple of days.
Cynicism has crept in, with the suspicion that there is a culture of them and us and of box-ticking. We definitely do want to move away from the “What we can get away with” culture, and I hope that, as the debate unfolds, we can agree on the principles that there should be a more transparent system of regulation and independent oversight. We have the platform on which we can move forward to discuss the detail of the Bill in a Committee of the whole House—
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you confirm that the Parliamentary Reform Committee to which the Minister has referred was actually withdrawn? Have I missed something? Has it been put down again on the Order Paper?
Mr. Speaker: You are certainly seeking to enter into a debate, Mr. Robathan, but I am afraid that it does not constitute a point of order.
Barbara Keeley: The Bill should sweep away the old system of MPs’ self-regulation in which people no longer have any confidence, and it will pave the way for a new system of independent and transparent regulation. As my right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary said earlier, the Bill is a result of some early constructive discussion, and I hope that, over the next couple of days, we can return to the very constructive discussions that we had with Opposition Members. Until today, there was constructive discussion, and there was agreement and consensus.
There has been further consideration of amendments, and we can look at all such issues. Today, we have indicated that we will accept the amendment to clause 6, so we can and should move forward on that basis. We can return to the issue of the Parliamentary Reform Committee, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 1.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Ms Dawn
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Hemming, John
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hermon, Lady
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, David
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Rennie, Willie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thurso, John
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Mark
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Steve McCabe and
Mr. Frank Roy
NOES
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Frank Field and
Mr. Richard Shepherd
Question accordingly agreed to.
parliamentary standards bill (programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A) (7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Parliamentary Standards Bill:
Committal
1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Proceedings: general
2. Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.
Proceedings in Committee
3. In Committee, proceedings shall be taken in the following Order: Clause 1, Schedules 1 to 3, Clauses 2 to 5, Clauses 11 to 14, Clauses 6 to 10, new Clauses, new Schedules and remaining proceedings.
4. Proceedings on Clause 1, Schedules 1 to 3, Clauses 2 to 5 and Clauses 11 to 14 shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on the first day.
5. Proceedings on Clauses 6 to 10, new Clauses, new Schedules, and remaining proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours before the moment of interruption on the second day.
Proceedings on consideration and Third Reading
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