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30 Jun 2009 : Column 21WH—continued
The hon. Lady also asked about mortgage law. The Ministry of Justice has been reviewing it in response to concerns raised in connection with the Horsham case,
which received some media attention last year, as she will recall. It will announce its conclusions shortly. Both she and the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening) asked about FSA regulation. I can assure them that the Treasury continues to keep regulation under review.
Sarah Teather: I am trying to help the Minister, because he has had to make a very long speech. The Government promised some time ago to regulate private buy-back and rent schemes and to bring them under the auspices of the FSA, but they still have not done that. Does he have any news on when that will happen?
Mr. Austin: In a rare moment of candour, I can tell the hon. Lady that, despite the fantastic induction into the Department given to me over the past few weeks, I do not have that information, but I shall find out and come back to her.
In conclusion, the Government are working day and night to do what is required to help households through these difficult times. We need to ensure that, wherever possible, families do not have to suffer the trauma and upheaval of repossession. People need to be reassured that we shall do everything possible to help all households at risk, so that they can benefit from the package of help that we have provided. We shall continue to put pressure on lenders to ensure that they support their customers, to strengthen and accelerate the delivery of the schemes that we have put in place, and to ensure that households know where to get help if they are struggling. At every stage, we shall show that their Government are on their side.
10.53 am
Forensic Science Service
11 am
Mr. David Amess (in the Chair): Unlike the last debate, when we did not have enough colleagues to fill the time, it appears that we now have a number of colleagues who wish to participate in this debate. I should like everyone to have a chance to speak, but it is up to hon. Members to determine how many I can call.
Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to see you, Mr. Amess, in the Chair for this very important debate. I am pleased to see that we have before us the same Minister who announced the reorganisation of the Forensic Science Service. His announcement came the day that we had a change of Home Secretary—a good day, it seems, to get bad news out. Members of Parliament were not given any prior warning of the news. In fact, we had the media on the phone telling us what was happening. That is not a good way for the Government to do business; in fact, it is a very poor way.
Let us set the background of where we are at and from where we go. Of course the announcement was bad news. We are talking about a review of seven sites. I hope that the Minister will stand up and apologise to hon. Members. The Home Secretary has taken the trouble to say sorry for not giving advance warning, but why should he apologise? He knew nothing about it. The decision was made while one Home Secretary was going and another was arriving. I hope that the Minister stands up now and apologises so that we can see what a decent chap he is. Does he wish to stand up? No. I think that that sums it up. That tells us everything about how this matter has been handled. It has been pretty appalling, has it not?
On 8 June, the Forensic Science Service launched a collective consultation in readiness for reorganisation of the business. As I have said, the timing of the announcement was particularly good—as one Home Secretary departed and another took office. It was a good day to bury bad news. In light of the Minister’s timing, I hope that he will be able to provide very comprehensive answers to all our questions, and that he will not simply hide behind the argument, “Nothing to do with me, guv. This is an operational matter for the FSS.” We do not want to hear that. This is about ensuring that crimes are solved in the future.
David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I raised this issue in the House on 11 June, just days after the announcement. To be fair to the Minister, who is a decent man of integrity, he wrote to me a day or two later, giving me the statement for which I asked. However, I was alarmed by what the letter said. Will the Minister agree, when he winds up, that the decision has been inevitable for a long time? His predecessors have undermined the ability of the FSS to perform to its full potential by actively encouraging profiteers in a service that should be about public interest and not commercial gain. That is the concern of Labour Members, who have been raising the matter for months and months. Now we see that up to 800 jobs may be going, which is appalling.
Mr. Hoyle: I totally agree with my hon. Friend, but this has been going on not for months but for years. This Minister has not approached me or other MPs. We were in regular contact with the Minister who used to have responsibilities for the FSS, the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), and we discussed all the issues with her. There were discussions from start to finish. What has changed? We now have a Minister who does not believe in Back Benchers. What we have is a technocrat. We have stopped doing politics because good politics is about talking to Back Benchers and to the representatives of the sites that are down for potential closure. That is what politicians should do, but technocrats do not do that; they just accept decisions. I hope that the Minister will prove me wrong and show that he is not a technocrat and that he is going to do politics, because it is about time that he did. I am disappointed in him because all the other Ministers took the time and the trouble to speak to us and explain what was going on and the rationale behind the decisions. Unfortunately, we have not seen that from this one. If the Minister wishes to intervene, I will give way at any point so that he can clarify his position and why he has taken a different role to others.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that not only did the previous Minister meet us to talk courteously about the matter, to try to get us to understand where the Government were coming from, but she also offered to go with us to visit some of the facilities, particularly the one in my constituency in Vauxhall?
Mr. Hoyle: I would welcome this Minister to Chorley. I hope that he does not pass judgment and allow things to happen without visiting sites and understanding the quality of the work that takes place, and the importance of that work. This decision is about privatisation. I have now found out that the chief executive is leaving and a new one is about to come in. He is Mr. Simon Bennett from QuinetiQ—[Hon. Members: “Oh no!”] We all know about QuinetiQ and how to become a billionaire: run a business, privatise it, fill up the bank account and off we go. Is that what is really behind the decision? It seems very strange that the chief executive who announced the closure programme and set out the rationale for it should be replaced. Surely the new chief executive should be the person who reviews the situation of all the sites—unless there is a hidden agenda, and I think that we should tease out that hidden agenda. The Minister must be up front and honest with us.
The Forensic Science Service states that as a consequence of the reorganisation, there is likely to be a headcount reduction of some 30 to 40 per cent. of the total work force. That change will take place over the next 18 months. It is against that backdrop that I applied for the debate, and I want to highlight my concerns about the Chorley site and the impact on the whole of the Forensic Science Service.
The Forensic Science Service is a leading provider of analysis and interpretation of evidence from crime scenes. It provides a comprehensive service from crime scene to courtroom and analyses more than 120,000 cases each year. It is the market leader in the supply of forensic science to the police and coroners in England and
Wales. It is also a supplier to places such as the Isle of Man, the overseas territories and other Commonwealth countries. It has a global reputation for excellence in the development and deployment of new and advanced techniques. Its heritage and expertise also provide the basis for world-class training services.
David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): As someone who supports the free market, may I say that I share the hon. Gentleman’s grave concerns about the limits of such a decision and about allowing private companies to provide evidence that could be used in murder trials? He has been critical of some Ministers, but will he pay tribute to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, who has said that we will have an emergency investigation of this matter in the next two weeks, before the recess? I hope that the hon. Gentleman will encourage anyone with relevant evidence to come before that Committee to make a strong case for keeping the FSS open.
Mr. Hoyle: I welcome that very important news. It sends a simple message to the Minister: stop anything going ahead and stop the plans now to allow that Committee to do its vital work. We welcome that news and I hope that the Government take heed of what has been said. It is on the Minister’s shoulders. It is no use him saying, “It’s not me, guv.” We do not want bully boys in suits. We want to ensure that honesty comes across in this Chamber, and for him to take on board what we have to say. We want him to listen, and to learn from previous mistakes. QinetiQ is a big mistake.
David Taylor: The Minister’s letter of 17 June has been mentioned. I genuinely believe him to be honest and open. In it, he said:
“We are committed to FSS’ survival as a core player in the forensics market and a vital part of the Criminal Justice System, and are investing considerably in the transformation programme.”
It is true that there is considerable investment, but I was disappointed with the words “a core player”; it should say “the core player”. The FSS ought to be the dominant player—it sets standards of professionalism and it is a beacon. It is a great pity that forensic science has been fragmented in a way that will allow the FSS to be sold off in three years’ time, which is the plan.
Mr. Hoyle: I cannot disagree with my hon. Friend. In fact, the problem is that the small players in the market are cherry-picking the work. That is what it is about. We know that the FSS is second to none in the world. Cases that would not otherwise have been solved have been solved by the FSS. Do we really believe that private companies will go back to cases from 30 or 40 years ago to solve murders, rapes and other serious crimes? The answer is no. It is because of the professionalism within the FSS that that can be done.
The FSS has held the evidence and is ready for the day when it can solve those cases. The private sector will not do that. We know what the private sector is about: it is about making money and answering to shareholders, not answering to victims of crime. The danger is that the move is a charter for criminals, and the Minister needs to be aware of it.
Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con):
The hon. Gentleman makes his points extremely effectively, but I hope he will not lose sight of the fact that many small practitioners, some of whom are based in my constituency—I hope to talk about them later—have
been affected by many of the Government’s changes to the FSS. They make an incredibly valuable contribution to forensic science.
Mr. Hoyle: Of course there are private companies that can do a job and pick up some of the work. There is lots of work out there. The one thing we know is that criminals will continue to come up with new ways to commit crime, which therefore have to be fought. Some work can be put out to private companies, but we are talking about the core of the business.
Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful case and I am following his argument closely. He is absolutely right about the importance of forensic science. In Northamptonshire, 47 per cent. of all theft and motor vehicle crime detections, 30 per cent. of theft from motor vehicle detections and 48 per cent. of detections of burglaries from dwellings are a direct result of fingerprint and DNA analysis.
Mr. Hoyle: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): My hon. Friend is rightly proud of the forensic science work that is done in Euxton in his constituency, but does he agree that there is a partnership between the work at Euxton and the excellent work that is done at the university of Central Lancashire? It has one of the best forensic science courses in the country and was recently featured in a television series. Does he also agree that the proximity of those facilities is key to ensuring that we maintain that centre of excellence?
Mr. Hoyle: I cannot disagree—my hon. Friend is absolutely correct. It is about bringing together the know-how of the FSS based in Chorley and the university of Central Lancashire, which specialises in forensic science degrees, and about building up the expertise. The joke is that the FSS has just built those links with the university, only for them to be thrown out. That is ridiculous. There is a centre of excellence at the university and an FSS centre of excellence only 10 miles away. Why would anyone consider closing the latter? It is common sense not to, but obviously the lack of common sense is coming through, and it is a charter for criminals. That is what the Government are proposing. That is why they have got to think long and hard and withdraw from their decisions, which will have a serious impact for all of us. My hon. Friend is spot on.
The FSS also pioneered the development and implementation of DNA technology, and it paved the way for establishing the world’s first DNA database, which was launched in April 1995. It has also led the way in helping to solve cold cases. As I said, that service is not to be underestimated, given the advance of technology.
The FSS has seven primary sites around the country. It is important to ensure that there is a geographical spread. As we know, the service has to be close to the scenes of crimes, because evidence does not last for ever. In fact, in a recent case, the scientists had to leave Chorley and get to the scene of a crime because it was pouring down, and the blood was disappearing and the evidence was being washed away. If forensic scientists are two hours away from such a crime scene, how is the crime going to be solved? The answer is that it is not.
Do we know what we are doing? Have we really thought this through? Are we assisting criminals to get away with murders, rapes and assaults? That is what we will be doing if we continue down this road. I hope the Minister reconsiders the matter very quickly and abandons the plan now.
I visited the Chorley site recently and once again saw evidence of the success of the FSS. There is a young, vibrant work force who work with older scientists, who pass on their knowledge. There are hundreds of years of expertise. Just because someone opens a shop, it does not give them the expertise. Expertise is about passing on knowledge and the best working practices historically. All that will be lost.
Of course, Chorley’s services range from drugs to the coding and detection of footwear, which is very important in solving a lot of crimes. Mobile phone expertise and electronic forensics are the latest things. They can detect whether someone who is in a serious car crash was using their phone. It can detect people who are dealing on the telephone or people who hold paedophilic images. A mobile phone can convict people. Which site deals with such things? Chorley. Which site do the Government want to close? Chorley. I presume that the Minister has considered the matter. Again, we do not want to hear, “It’s not me, guv. It’s them down the road. I’m only the Minister.” We want to hear what the Minister is going to do to ensure that we continue to put paedophiles behind bars where they belong. That is what we are talking about and why the matter is so serious.
On hearing the news of the job cuts, I was very concerned about the effect on the Chorley work force. Does the Minister want to intervene?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell) indicated dissent.
The news is sad. I was also horrified by the news, which was announced through Prospect, that three sites—Chorley, Chepstow and Priory House—were proposed for closure. It will come as no surprise to hon. Members that that was a damaging blow to staff morale at Chorley and the other sites. The employees at Chorley have expressed how devastated they are, because they are dedicated to preventing crime and bringing criminals to court. They are not interested in shareholders’ profits; they are interested in ethics and putting criminals behind bars.
I was amazed by the subtle shift from the FSS. We started with a consultation about a headcount—that is what we were told—which then became a consultation about the proposed closure of three sites. Why those three sites? Why does the consultation not cover the seven sites? Why should we shut any site when we need a geographical spread? We need to return to that issue. I certainly do not want people to lose their jobs. We cannot put a price on stopping and solving crime, but the message seems to be that we will save money at the cost of allowing criminals to get away.
We have gone from a consultation on a headcount reduction to a consultation on a reduction by three sites. In a letter to me dated 8 June, Bill Griffiths, the
FSS chief executive, referred to a headcount reduction, but he made no specific reference to the closure of Chorley or any other site. Chorley was not up for closure at that time, and I do not know whether Bill Griffiths knew that he was going to be replaced at that point, but it all seems very strange. Dates and people are moving all the time.
I met Mr. Griffiths on Monday 22 June. Once again, no mention was made of the closure at Chorley as part of the consultation that would start the process, yet two days later, on Wednesday 24 June, the proposed closure was announced via Prospect. We have still not heard any confirmation. Did the Minister phone up any Member here? Did anyone have a letter off the Minister to tell them what is going on? No. Yet previously, we were informed. What is the difference between Ministers such as my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch and this Minister? Is it arrogance? Is it that he does not want to talk to Back Benchers? Are we not worthy of being spoken to?
It seems strange that different Ministers have played such different roles: from full contact, full conversation and engagement to zero. That is what we have had: zero contact and zero engagement. That is not good enough, is it? I hope the Minister will explain why he does not think that it is worth speaking to Back Benchers, when previous Ministers did.
How can an organisation operate in such a manner? How can that be right? I believe that the FSS’s proposals are misguided and will severely limit the organisation’s ability to support the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the coroners in solving crimes and investigating deaths. The Chorley site acts as a central hub for the police forces of Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire, Cumbria, Cheshire, North Wales and North Staffordshire, and sometimes for parts of Derbyshire. Those areas have the highest crime rates outside London, and Chorley enjoys an excellent working relationship with their police authorities. Chorley also works with the Isle of Man, which I do not believe has been consulted. Neither have the coroners. A population of about 8 million will end up with no forensic science site, yet we know that Manchester and Liverpool are a major crime hub.
The geographical location of the Chorley site plays an important role, as the police can bring vital evidence there to be examined, which helps solve serious crime cases where early detection is required. For example, in drugs cases, the forensic science team at Chorley, which specialises in such cases, is asked to respond within hours of receiving a sample. The police wait for it to be analysed in order to get criminals into court. If they have to travel two hours to the west or three hours to the south, how will they achieve that? It cannot be done. That is why I say the proposal is a criminals’ charter. We will not be able to get evidence to court on time. That is why it is so serious. I am not just using rhetoric—these are the facts.
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