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30 Jun 2009 : Column 28WH—continued
The Chorley team’s ability to respond quickly plays a major part in bringing serious offenders to justice. The police will be unable to operate in their usual fashion if Chorley is closed down. Members will remember the tragic death of Garry Newlove, who was beaten to death outside his home. We know that not getting evidence is a danger. It was the Chorley Forensic Science Service that detected the evidence, ensuring that the
thugs who did it ended up in jail. The team were up against the clock. The judge was almost willing to give way and allow the case to be dismissed because evidence had not been produced. That is the importance of the Forensic Science Service, and that is why we must ensure that evidence is kept close to where the cases are. Can we really allow a decision to be taken that could restrict the police’s ability to bring vicious killers to jail? What alternative arrangements are the police expected to make when urgent examinations must be undertaken?
The FSS in Chorley also played a crucial role after the 7/7 London bombings. Do we really believe that the FSS in London alone could deal with major bombings? The work was distributed among the centres in England and Wales. Unfortunately, the UK is likely to suffer major bombings again, or to help other countries where they have taken place. We need a plethora of Forensic Science Service sites to fight terrorism. Capacity within the system is essential. If sites are closed, the service will not be able to deal with incidents like the 7/7 bombings. I am pleased that notes keep coming from the henchmen behind the Minister.
It is a sad situation. Forensic scientists at Chorley worked on the case of Rhys Jones—a young boy who happened to be walking back from football at the wrong time and was tragically shot. Chorley played a role in the forensic science of that murder as well.
Who played a part in the case of the gangsters in Manchester who have just gone to court? The Forensic Science Service at Chorley. We cannot underestimate that work. We must get on with what we do best. The FSS also deals with drugs and delivers lectures to the police. It works so well, yet we are willing to throw that out.
FSS staff inform me that they are very busy. They are full up with work. It is not a question of spare capacity; the FSS does not have any. It is a busy organisation. The effects will be serious, if we are not careful. The police place great demand on the drugs team at Chorley in solving crimes and putting a value on drugs. It is not just about analysing whether something is cannabis. How strong is it? What is its street value? Is it for a deal or for home use? That information does not come easily; it takes true analysis. Forensic material must be investigated at an early stage.
The FSS does fire scene examinations. In a recent attack in Bolton in which, tragically, someone died and a fireman was seriously injured, the FSS came down from Chorley. Where is the nearest site? There are only two centres: Wetherby and Chorley. Fire scenes must be dealt with quickly. We cannot say, “Oh well, we’ll do the analysis tomorrow or the day after”; it must be done immediately. We are risking that.
I mentioned the benefits of having an FSS site near the university of Central Lancashire so that the two can work together. Students can come to the Forensic Science Service at Chorley to build skills for the future. The private sector will not do that for us. Links will be torn apart if the Chorley site closes. We must ensure that that severe blow to the north-west is not allowed to fall. It also threatens the future viability of the national Forensic Science Service team as a whole. An organisation cannot compete successfully with private operators by simply withdrawing from a region the size of the north-west and allowing the private sector to cherry-pick the work.
Then people will wonder why the necessary results are not being delivered. We must ensure that we are in the best position for the future.
The closure flies directly in the face of the foundations of the criminal justice system. Evidence should be gathered to prove conclusively an individual’s innocence or guilt of a crime. That is what comes from the Forensic Science Service, because that is what it specialises in. Having spoken to staff, I am told that they find increasingly that cases are being dropped not because of lack of evidence but purely because of the cost of analysing it. That is a problem. It is not just small cases; it can involve more serious ones. That will happen even more if the Forensic Science Service is not there. At what point does it become acceptable to say to a person seriously traumatised physically and mentally that it is not worth the cost to bring their attacker to justice? We cannot put a price on that. Although I acknowledge the need to achieve value for money and reduce costs if possible, forensic science should never be about making money. It should be about investigation, discovery and confirmation of facts with a view to bringing those who commit crimes to justice.
Turning to the process leading to the decision to close three sites, I would like to ask the Minister what consultation he has had with the police, the coroner’s office and the Isle of Man, and what has come back. Will he share that information with us? Let us not hear, “Not me, guv; it’s somebody else.” Have the police been alerted to the original proposal for a headcount reduction or the new proposal for the closure of three sites? He might be able to help us with that. What have the police been consulted on—reduction in head count or closure of sites? I have mentioned the importance of the coroner’s office and its work.
I made a point earlier about drugs work and the need for a speedy response. It is crucial. Have the police been told about the closure and what effect it will have on the need to turn around forensic science information quickly? It is imperative that there is a detailed impact study that involves the police and all other partners before this decision is taken forward. If not, we will be simply signing a criminals’ charter that will reduce the effectiveness of the FSS in responding to the needs of the police when solving crimes.
I turn to the implications for the staff if the restructuring takes place. Staff have been told that career development opportunities will be available as a consequence of reorganisation. I am confused by that statement because they are facing a severe reduction in numbers. Staff will be invited to reapply for their jobs if they wish to remain in the service. That leads to growing uncertainty and will mean that even if their applications are successful, their terms and conditions will change—the decision really is about money. What guarantee can the Minister give that staff will not have to move from one part of the country to another to maintain their jobs? Why would someone based in the north-west move to London to carry out their work? Is there room for them on other sites? The answer is no. Chorley is one of the few sites where the Government owns the land around the facility and could expand it. That should be considered seriously.
This is no way to treat the highly skilled people who have so much to offer and who provide a first-class service in the field of forensic science. The Chorley laboratory has consistently met and exceeded its targets.
The management have been informed that staff loyalty will be rewarded. How will it be rewarded? There is no more loyal and dedicated professional work force than those at the Chorley site. Despite that, they are faced with the awful prospect of redundancy.
The Forensic Science Service provides a mission statement on its website:
“To retain and reinforce our leading position as the principal provider of forensic science to the UK criminal justice system, and use this platform to become the leading provider worldwide, thereby enhancing long term shareholder value.”
I am sure that we all share that vision, but the closure of three sites, including at Chorley, is not the way to go about things. I therefore urge the Minister to look carefully at the forensic science proposals and to realise the damage that will be done to the service and to the north-west if the Chorley site closes. I urge him to instruct the FSS to assess its future plans and to abandon its current proposals. As I said, this decision is a charter for criminals. It is about providing work for the private sector.
I hope that the Minister will be honest, answer the points and not hide behind other people. The Government have only one shareholder—we are the shareholder. If they are serious about putting criminals behind bars, they should not proceed with this decision, and they should answer the questions. Thank you, Mr. Amess, for your patience.
Mr. David Amess (in the Chair): Order. I appeal for short speeches so that I can call all hon. Members with a constituency interest before we start the winding-up speeches at midday.
11.32 am
Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): I am grateful for your chairmanship and guidance, Mr. Amess. I will be as brief as possible. I certainly do not intend to speak for more than five minutes.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) on securing this debate. If I were a Minister, I would think that with friends like that, who needs enemies? Luckily, I am not. After today’s outing, I intend to attend any debate that the hon. Gentleman opens or plans to contribute to.
On the Forensic Science Service, there are a number of independent practitioners in my constituency: Dr. John and Kathy Manlove run Manlove Forensics in Grove technology park; Mr. Tiernan Coyle, who lives in my constituency, is the managing director of Contact Traces; and Mr. Roger Robson is the managing director of Forensic Access in Wantage. Those three companies met on Monday to discuss the ongoing saga of the difficulties created by the Government’s reorganisation of forensic sciences. I have corresponded with the Minister and asked parliamentary questions on this issue.
To add to the woes of the hon. Member for Chorley, he should be aware that the Government have also got rid of the Council for the Registration of Forensic Practitioners. It was closed even before the consultation on the matter was concluded. It will not surprise the
hon. Gentleman that when the Minister stands up to make his concluding remarks he will say, “Not me, guv,” about that, too. He will claim that the police refused to continue to fund the organisation. However, the registration of forensic practitioners is as important to forensic science as the continued success of the FSS.
In effect, there is now no registration system for individual practitioners of forensic science, including those who work at the FSS. The National Police Improvement Agency is in charge of registration and is using the United Kingdom Accreditation Service to accredit forensic science. However, UKAS will accredit only companies, not individuals. Individuals who work in the FSS cannot get individual accreditation.
The impact of that on small companies, including the three companies that I mentioned, has been massive. Mr. Roger Robson, who runs Forensic Access, says that overall it will have cost him about £35,000 to achieve UKAS accreditation. It cost £1,200 just for his company to apply and £24,000 to get the qualification. UKAS charged £900 a day for consultation work. Such an accreditation service will put many small practitioners out of business.
Another problem is that the National Police Improvement Agency will allow outsourced forensic work to be applied for only in bundles. Therefore, only companies that cover a range of forensic services will be able to tender for such work. To pick up on the remarks of the hon. Member for Chorley, that is a charter for big business. I suspect that his sympathies lie more with small, individual expert practitioners, rather than with huge, multinational private companies that are owned by shareholders. That change is a huge problem for companies such as Contact Traces, which specialises in fibres, and Manlove Forensics, which specialises in entomology.
Those companies have been in contact with Andrew Rennison at the Home Office, and I must put on the record their gratitude to him. The hon. Gentleman is concerned about the lack of response from the Minister, but my constituents have said that they have had good access and constructive discussions. However, I do not wish to create a divide between the Minister and his official. My constituents were told that a “procurement lite” framework was forthcoming on 4 June. Has it come forward? Such a framework is incredibly important as it would allow small, independent practitioners to continue to tender for forensic science work.
Thank you for allowing me to make that short contribution, Mr. Amess. I want simply to get one message across to the Minister: the changes in the FSS have turned what was a world-class service on its head. The hon. Member for Chorley talked about the catastrophic effect they have had on the FSS. I want to emphasise the effect on the hundreds of small practitioners, many of which are based in my constituency, who provide a valuable service, important competition and the narrow expertise that is vital to the ecology of forensic science. I ask the Minister to please not lose sight of those practitioners in carrying out the reforms.
11.37 am
Colin Burgon (Elmet) (Lab):
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), I declare a constituency interest. There is a Forensic Science Service laboratory in Wetherby in my constituency. My hon. Friend has
covered the ground well. He is right to say that MPs have been treated shabbily. However, the work force has been treated in an even more shabby manner. The trade unions have been frozen out of many of the discussions as this shambolic process has proceeded. I pay homage to the work force in Wetherby. As he said, they are a loyal and dedicated bunch.
This debate points to the absolute failure of the new Labour political ideology. There is a wonderful symmetry between that market ideology and that of the Conservative party. I argue that the introduction of the market has destroyed the FSS. The starting point of that was the McFarland review of 2002-03, which stated that the FSS being the national supplier of forensic science services created a fundamental market distortion. It recommended that competition be stimulated to increase investment. It stated that, in effect, the police form a monopoly customer, which also distorts the market. New Labour’s love affair with the market allowed it to go along with such distorted thinking. I am not a believer in the market. I believe that there are areas of our public life, such as education, health and the criminal justice system, that have no place in the market.
Obviously, I have had contact with my constituents in Wetherby, and they want me to flag up some particular concerns. They are concerned that redundancies will result in the loss of many experienced staff from forensic science and that those staff will leave the industry altogether, leaving a skills gap in the future. Will the Minister address that? The staff who will be made redundant are mostly career specialists who have committed many years to forensic science and are going to find it very hard to find comparable employment. What I am really arguing is that all this is bound up with our idea of the public and the private, and about consumers and citizens. I am willing to argue that staff in the existing FSS go the extra mile and spend the extra hour because they feel committed to that public service. That will not be replicated with the great desire to introduce the market into forensic science.
There is a tradition that Ministers run Departments, but I fear that it is the other way around in the Home Office. I have experienced Ministers coming along with crackpot ideas about building a super-prison in my constituency. There were no rational arguments behind those ideas, and it seemed as though there was a force, somewhere behind them, driving that process. I can only presume that the unelected civil service, which we are never supposed to criticise, actually determines the agenda on such matters, so we have got to ask whether Departments are running Ministers. [Interruption.] That may be open to debate.
I am aware that several people want to take part in the debate, so I shall end with a few questions. My hon. Friend the Member for Chorley has mentioned that we seem to have a new chief executive, Mr. Bennett, and that there is a connection or relationship with QinetiQ. We have to be careful about this—and let us have some honesty, because, since 2003, when we first met the then Home Secretary, there has been a bad smell about this whole process. If we are absolutely honest, this process has, from day one, been about fattening up the FSS to sell it off eventually as a privatised business. Let us be honest about it. No matter how polite Ministers have been in telling us about things and updating us, that was behind the process.
If we got a bit of honesty, perhaps the Minister would be able to explain a few things. I am looking at something that I got from the Public and Commercial Services Union parliamentary group, which contains some of the information that went to the interview panel for the chief executive position—this is from our Government. It says:
“In order to respond more quickly to the changes in the forensic science market, increase customer focus and improve its commercial competitiveness, the FSS was in 2005 transformed into a Government-owned company. This is intended as a precursor to evolution into a private sector entity, the timing of which depends on FSS’ ability to transform itself into a viable, commercial entity.”
That is what was laid down before the chief executive, so let us have some honesty. Without honesty, we are going to finish up with the service being sold off to the private sector. It is another QinetiQ waiting to happen.
Let me remind hon. Members that on the day of the QinetiQ company’s flotation in 2006, the top 10 managers held shares worth £107 million—
Colin Burgon: They received £107 million for an investment of just £540,000. They made £200 for every £1 invested. The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) was mentioned earlier. He has said that
“senior public servants managing QinetiQ behaved dishonourably. They sold the idea to the MOD of privatising the business without explaining they stood to benefit.”
I think there is a horrible smell about this whole process. There is subterfuge and dishonesty, and I think we should stop the whole process and reconfirm our commitment to the FSS staying firmly in the public sector, and to creating a protected market within that sphere.
11.44 am
Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): It is delightful to follow the hon. Member for Elmet (Colin Burgon). I was a director of QinetiQ before coming to this House. I am not a millionaire and I was not part of the seniority to whom money was doshed out, but it is important to bring that experience to bear in this debate because I have seen it before.
The previous speakers are absolutely right—in all my days, including the dark days of the 1980s and 1990s when people talked about Tory privatisation, I have never seen a worse privatisation than that of QinetiQ. I can tell you how it starts, Mr. Amess—it starts off with the Treasury, which wants the money. Its fingerprints are all over this, just the same as with QinetiQ. Then a bit of part-private assistance is brought in; that is what they call it. There is a bit of public-private partnership, or the status of the body is changed. Once those people have been brought in, the first thing they do is take the axe to the real asset of the organisation. The only real asset of such organisations are the scientists, whether they are in the defence research laboratories, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency or the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency.
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