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Amendment made: 87, in clause 9, page 6, line 27, leave out from ‘included’ to the end of line 28 and insert
‘by virtue of section 5(10) (prohibition on paid advocacy) in the MPs’ code of conduct relating to financial interests.’.— (Mr. Blizzard.)Clause 9, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Amendments made: 23, page 7, line 8, after ‘evidence’, insert
‘of words spoken by, or any other conduct of, a Member of the House of Commons in proceedings in Parliament’.Amendment 24, page 7, line 8, leave out ‘a’ and insert ‘that’.— (Sir Stuart Bell.)
Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 250.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lucas, Ian
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Prentice, Bridget
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, rh James
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. John Heppell and
Mrs. Sharon Hodgson
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Austin, John
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barrett, John
Beckett, rh Margaret
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davis, rh David
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorries, Nadine
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Durkan, Mark
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Fox, Dr. Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Jones, Lynne
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr. Andrew
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Mactaggart, Fiona
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mason, John
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
McGrady, Mr. Eddie
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Meale, Mr. Alan
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Pope, Mr. Greg
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Alan
Simpson, David
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, David
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Stephen Crabb and
Bill Wiggin
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Gerald Howarth: On a point of order, Sir Alan. Notwithstanding the splendid outcome of that Division, which surely represents the passion of the House on this matter and is a serious affront to the Justice Secretary, I believe that it is a constitutional outrage that a clause described by the learned Clerk as possibly having
“a chilling effect on the freedom of speech of Members”
has not had a moment’s debate in this Chamber. If it was not for right hon. and hon. Members having voted against the clause by three votes, despite the Government Whips’ attempts to stop them, we would not be able to debate it.
The Chairman: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has got away with quite a bit there—on a point of order that is not strictly so. He knows that I cannot respond to that.
Sir Alan Beith: On a point of order, Sir Alan. I wonder whether I might give you notice that I am very happy that my amendment on Report, amendment 16, now falls, because it was an amendment to leave out clause 10. I hope that the Justice Secretary, rather than treating the situation as an affront, will take it as a recognition that the primary purpose of the Bill did not require clause 10, that we can set up the necessary body without it, and that he should now get on and do so to the general satisfaction of the House.
The Chairman: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the necessary changes to the order of selection will take place on Report.
Mr. Grieve: Further to that point of order, Sir Alan. I appreciate that we are about to embark on the Report stage of the Bill, but considerable consequences, in the form of consequential amendments, might flow from the disappearance of clause 10. We are about to embark on the process that will result in the Bill’s leaving this House in about an hour and 20 minutes’ time. Have you had any notice of a statement from the Secretary of State about how the Government wish to proceed with this legislation, in view of what has happened?
The Chairman: I call Mr. Jack Straw.
Mr. Straw: Further to that point of order, Sir Alan. It is fair to say that you have not had notice of such a statement, because we have only just learned of the decision of the House, by 250 votes to 247. Of course, I understand the concerns of the House. We will respect the decision. [Interruption.] The Opposition Chief Whip is supposed to be silent, as he knows—that is what he is paid for.
I say to the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) that although we will not be able to do so on Report, we will take full account of the decision of the House in the consequential amendments in the other place.
The Chairman: The Secretary of State said that he had no notice of the situation; no more did I. I am sure, however, that our advisers will ensure that we do everything in order henceforth.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Mr. Cash: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In 1993, Speaker Boothroyd gave a warning that, in respect of article IX of the Bill of Rights, the courts should not interfere in the proceedings of the House. New clause 7 deals with article IX of the Bill of Rights and new clause 8 deals with the supremacy of Parliament. They go to the very heart of how we are governed in this country. Some 40 Members of Parliament have signed the new clauses, which are, furthermore, in the name of the official Opposition. Against that background, may I ask for your ruling on how it can be that those two new clauses have not been selected for debate, as a result of which the House has been put in peril?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member and he knows that no explanation is given for the selection of amendments. I did not participate in the decision, and there is nothing that the Chair can say. It is customary for the selection to be made and for the House to accept the consequences. Whether there will be further opportunities in the course of proceedings on the Bill is another matter. I cannot go further than that.
Mr. Jenkin: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Without wishing to ask you what the rationale might be, I speculate that aspects of the Bill—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is also a very experienced Member, and he is not going to get away with that.
Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Committee (Programme Order of 29 June)
‘The IPSA shall become the data controller for the purposes of the Data Protection Act 1998 two months after the day this Act is passed.’ —(Alan Duncan.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
5.43 pm
Alan Duncan: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I wish to make reference to the significance of what we are doing in creating the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in terms of the law that will affect us and our expenses under the Data Protection Act 1998. Very simply, one of the most important elements of the Data Protection Act is who is responsible for holding the data and therefore who is responsible for answering freedom of information requests—and ultimately, I suppose, for making decisions along the lines of what is published and whether it has to be redacted and, to our great embarrassment, how.
The Bill will set up IPSA, but it remains unclear when responsibility for controlling and holding the data will pass to it. It is obviously absurd to assume that that responsibility can pass on the day that the Bill receives Royal Assent, because the apparatus to handle it will simply not exist. It therefore makes good sense, in order to have an orderly transition, to try to specify a date on which the baton of responsibility is passed from this House to the new independent body, perhaps with an enormous collective parliamentary sigh of relief, leaving it to others to decide how data relating to our expenses can be handled, published and released.
The new clause suggests that there should be a period of two months between the Bill receiving Royal Assent and the date on which the responsibility should formally pass. It is a very simple, uncontroversial proposal. If, for any reason, the Government believe that it should be, say, three months, we would not argue strongly about that. However, the principle of making it absolutely clear when this House relinquishes responsibility for the administration of our expenses is essential if we are to avoid more of the calamitous coverage that we have suffered from over the past few weeks.
I merely ask the Minister to tell the House whether the Government are prepared to accept the new clause, in whole or in principle. Depending on the reply, we can either decide to withdraw it, and perhaps let the other place table another one, or to press ahead with it.
Sir Robert Smith: The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) makes an important point about the transition of responsibility and clarifying when and how it happens. The Government’s reply may deal with the practicalities of whether two months is the appropriate period. I agree with him that the Government should explain how they plan to do this and when, and make it clear, perhaps in another place, exactly what the date should be.
Mr. Redwood: One of the many muddles that the Bill is getting Parliament into is the muddle over how staff will transfer and when the body will be established. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) has tabled this new clause suggesting some clarity over the data controller aspect. However, it is not possible to put a time on when that could take place unless we know how long it will take to set up the body and to appoint all the relevant staff.
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