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1 July 2009 : Column 407

Sir Patrick Cormack: Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Do you realise that there is a seething anger in this House because we have no time for Third Reading at all? This is a Bill of monumental importance, and the only reason we are debating the current clause is that it has been rushed through. Is there something you can do? Can I move a motion, and will you accept it?

Madam Deputy Speaker: While we are debating these points of order, the clock is ticking away. I have already ruled that there is nothing I can do to change the matter.

Sir Robert Smith: Despite the controversy and mishandling, I want to place those thanks on the record, because there has been quite a lot of movement and communication, and it has helped the Bill to become a bit better—but not perfect. It is definitely still in an unworkable form.

Sir Alan Beith: While my hon. Friend is offering thanks, I wonder whether he will allow me to encourage him to thank the two Committees that have contributed to these debates, and the Members and staff who have made that possible.

Sir Robert Smith: Had my right hon. Friend not intervened on me, those two items would have been next on my list. Those thanks stand on the record; I shall not bother repeating them. However, those Committees have made a huge difference to informing the House and to the Bill’s progress.

As I said to the Secretary of State, there is a consensus among the vast majority of those in the House that putting out to an external authority the handling of Members’ expenses, finances and salaries is a very necessary way to restore public confidence in this country’s body politic. It was a crucial part of the Bill and a crucial reason for its urgency. However, the Bill expanded like Topsy and got into an awful muddle as the Government bolted on extra aspects that have had to be removed. That has made it much more unworkable, and means that it needs to be revisited and properly scrutinised.

The Bill will go to the other place, which we hope will do a good job in trying to improve it, but putting the onus on the Government by introducing a sunset clause so that they knew the Bill had to be revisited would concentrate their mind. In the autumn we would be able to come forward again with the full scrutiny of effective legislation, fully worked out, so that we had a permanent solution that dealt with all the concerns that have been raised in this debate. I urge the Government, even at this late stage, to accept a sunset clause.

Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): There are three good reasons why we need a sunset clause. First, as the Secretary of State said, this is emergency legislation, and emergency legislation should generally carry a review or a sunset clause. Secondly, the Government have themselves published guidelines with which to judge whether Bills or regulations should have sunset clauses. On the list of criteria deemed to be particularly appropriate for sunset clauses, there is

1 July 2009 : Column 408

I cannot think of anything more apposite to describe the need for a sunset clause. Indeed, the Secretary of State used the word “pressure” only a moment ago.

The third reason, which we all know about because we have been sitting here for three days, is that the Bill is in a thoroughly shoddy state and needs to be fundamentally reviewed. It will not be properly done in a few weeks in the other place; we will have to do it ourselves in a year’s time—hopefully, when my party is in government.

Sir Patrick Cormack: This is a monstrous Bill, which has been pushed through with indecent haste. If we had taken the proper time, we could have had a decent Bill that dealt with expenses but did not interfere with Parliament’s rights and privileges. This is a black day for Parliament, and I urge the House to support the sunset clause so that at least we can try to put things right in a year’s time.

Question put: That the amendment be made.

The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 284.
Division No. 179]
[7 pm


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davis, rh David
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorries, Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles

Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mason, John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:

Richard Younger-Ross and
Bill Wiggin


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.

Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mudie, Mr. George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty

Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Tellers for the Noes:

Mrs. Sharon Hodgson and
Mr. John Heppell
Question accordingly negatived.
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1 July 2009 : Column 410

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It being after Seven o’clock, The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Programme Order, 29 June, and Standing Order No. 83E).

Schedule 1

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

Amendments made: 12, page 10, line 12, leave out ‘holds or has held’ and insert ‘has held (but no longer holds)’.

Amendment 13, page 16, line 3, after ‘and’ insert ‘the Speaker must’.— (Barbara Keeley.)

Schedule 2

Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations

Amendments made: 14, page 19, line 3, after ‘and’ insert ‘the Speaker must’.

Amendment 15, page 19, line 5, leave out ‘On laying’ and insert ‘When the Speaker lays’.— (Barbara Keeley.)

Third reading

Motion made, and Q uestion put, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

A Division was called, but no Members being appointed Tellers for the Noes, the Deputy Speaker declared that the Ayes had it.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

saving gateway accounts bill (programme) (No. 2)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order 83A(7)),

Question agreed to.

1 July 2009 : Column 413

Saving Gateway Accounts Bill

Consideration of Lords amendments

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that privilege is involved in Lords amendments 1 and 2. If the House agrees to these amendments, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.

Clause 3


7.16 pm

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah McCarthy-Fry): I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendment 2.

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Lords amendments 1 and 2 would make all recipients of carer’s allowance eligible for the saving gateway. The issue was discussed in detail during the Bill’s previous stages in this place, and I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) and for Leeds, East (Mr. Mudie) and the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) for raising it. In response, the then Economic Secretary said that the Government were minded to table amendments in the other place— [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps hon. Members who are not taking part in the debate will leave the Chamber quietly and let us get on with our business.

Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that the statement is now due to follow the business that we are considering. I wonder whether the Speaker has taken it into consideration that, during earlier points of order about the Government’s not coming to the House to discuss the nationalisation of a particular rail franchise and our having to wait for the statement to be made in the other place first, the Leader of the House was signalling to him, for all to see, that the statement would not be made at 7 o’clock, as he proposed, but at 5 o’clock. We had no statement at 5 or at 7 and we still await it.

Could you also tell me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether, now that the Speaker has had time to read the transcripts from the “Today” programme, which I know he has in his possession, he or anyone in the Chair plans to make a clear criticism of the Government for their failure to come here before announcing a programme of nationalisation on the radio?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Perhaps I could deal with those matters in reverse order. On the second point, it is not for me to try to explain to the right hon. Gentleman what the Speaker has in mind. The statement will made later this evening, and the Chair has played no part in that decision—the Government are producing the statement.

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