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Amendment proposed: 37, page 2, line 10, leave out ‘£6,475’ and insert ‘£10,000’.—( Mr. Jeremy Browne.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The House divided: Ayes 61, Noes 310.
AYES
Alexander, Danny
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burt, Lorely
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Philip
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Foster, Mr. Don
George, Andrew
Gidley, Sandra
Goldsworthy, Julia
Harris, Dr. Evan
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hermon, Lady
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, David
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonnell, John
Moore, Mr. Michael
Mulholland, Greg
Öpik, Lembit
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Pugh, Dr. John
Rennie, Willie
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rowen, Paul
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, David
Smith, Sir Robert
Spink, Bob
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Webb, Steve
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Colin Breed and
Mr. Alan Reid
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Geraldine
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Helen Jones and
Mr. Bob Blizzard
Question accordingly negatived.
9 pm
Mr. Jeremy Browne: I beg to move amendment 38, page 4, line 34, at end insert—
‘(3A) After subsection (1A) insert—
“(1AB) The rate under section 36 (1AA)(a) shall be reduced by 2 per cent. for the tax year 2010-11 and by a further 2 per cent. for each subsequent tax year.”’.
By the time the Finance Bill reaches this stage, it is like one of those not very good musicals where the main tunes are reprised throughout so everybody gets an opportunity to hear them several times. That is certainly true of the main themes of this Bill, as we have had further opportunities to discuss income tax and other matters that have already been touched upon both in the Committee of the whole House and in the Public Bill Committee.
I make no apologies, however, for returning to a theme that I have already visited: Government taxation of alcohol. As several Members have raised this point, let me say at the outset that the amendment deals specifically with beer duty but that I want it to be regarded as illustrative of a wider concern that has been expressed to me: about the Government’s approach to alcohol taxation as a whole. Other Members may, of course, wish to speak about different forms of alcohol, and I do not wish to give the impression that I am concerned solely about beer. For many people beer is probably the most high-profile illustration, however, although I and other Members are also concerned about the taxation of cider, spirits, wine, sparkling wine, whisky and other forms of alcoholic beverage.
Stewart Hosie: I am sure many Members are concerned about all sorts of unfairness in the duty regime, but the bit of the Bill that the hon. Gentleman’s amendment seeks to change is only about beer. I am not quite sure how, without stretching the patience of the Chair, we can go beyond beer, and the fact that that stands on its own makes all this slightly odd.
Mr. Browne: Well, let us just talk about beer then, shall we Madam Deputy Speaker?
Madam Deputy Speaker: I think that is an excellent idea, Mr. Browne.
Mr. Browne: Perhaps we should do that at nine o’clock every evening, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I shall focus on beer, therefore. The British Beer and Pub Association estimates that 39 pubs are closing every week in Britain, which means that about half a dozen pubs close every day. I do not pretend that it is the role of Government to ensure that every pub stays open indefinitely. I notice that the Conservative party has come up with some uncosted proposals to try to ensure that nothing ever changes in any rural communities regardless of economic circumstances. That is not my view. I realise that good pubs will thrive and become more profitable—and may even expand, if they get planning permission to do so—and that pubs that cannot attract customers are likely to go out of business. I am not trying to question that basic economic assumption.
There is an underlying problem, however, that goes beyond just changes in lifestyle and drinking practices, although I recognise that more people than in the past now wish to consume beer at home, perhaps while watching a DVD—or the Ashes on television tomorrow—and that they may not be as tempted as they once were to visit a pub. I want to put it on record that there are such changing circumstances, because it is impossible to have a balanced debate if we do not acknowledge that. Even given those considerations, however, we should be concerned that 39 pubs on average are closing every week in Britain, because pubs are more than just businesses: many of them are also the social hub of their community.
Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this issue, which is of great concern to many Members. Does he agree that, especially in rural communities, the pub is often the social focal point and meeting place for people? The Crown in the town of Montgomery, the Four Crosses pub in Four Crosses and the Lion in Llandinam are all—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I think we have got the gist of what the hon. Gentleman is trying to say.
Mr. Browne: I think I understood the point being made by my hon. Friend. It would have helped me a bit if he had been able to give a few more examples from his constituency, but I agreed with his basic point. It is no coincidence that so many soap operas are set in and around pubs, because they are such an obvious setting in everyday life for social interaction and for opportunities to exchange views and information. I am sure that that is very much the case not only in my constituency, but in the constituencies of other hon. Members present.
Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth and Camborne) (LD): Does my hon. Friend agree that the beer duty increases will have an impact not only on rural communities where the pub is the hub, but on a lot of smaller breweries, which are very important employers? They will be indirectly affected by any such changes and we should seek to protect them too.
Mr. Browne: I strongly agree with that observation; I was going to talk about breweries later in my speech, but perhaps I should discuss them right now.
Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD) rose—
Mr. Browne: Well, before I do that, I shall give way to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Foster: Before my hon. Friend moves on, he should continue to list the benefits of pubs in our communities, because they are not just the hub. Surely they are also a place where people can drink much more responsibly than they often do when they have bought pocket-money-priced booze in our supermarkets and off licences. Therefore, will he suggest that instead of going ahead with this ridiculous beer tax and the other increases on duty, the Government should be considering minimum pricing so that we can cut down on the supermarkets’ cheap booze in order to solve many of our problems?
Mr. Browne: That is a very valid point, which also illustrates people’s wider concerns about losing pubs. Although people go to pubs to drink beer, in many cases they also enjoy eating in that environment. It has been notable how many pubs have modified their offering to their customers in order to provide food. Pubs also provide entertainment, for example, quizzes and music; karaoke may be popular with some customers, although less so with others. A range of attractions in pubs help to make them part of their community and popular with their customers.
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): My hon. Friend has consistently pushed the case for defending pubs on the duty issue—last year and this. I hope that he is also aware of the many services that are often provided in pubs. In recent weeks there have been polling stations in pubs, and my constituency contains a post office in a pub at Stratton—there is also a proposal to bring a post office back to St. Issey in this way. These are the sorts of thing that the pub, as often the last institution in the village, can preserve.
Mr. Browne: That is also a very good point. The Prince of Wales has campaigned on the notion that “The Pub is the Hub”. As services get consolidated in rural communities, there will increasingly be a desire for pubs to diversify into not only other aspects of their business, such as food and accommodation, but areas of business that have not previously been associated with pubs—for example, providing stamps and basic groceries such as bread and eggs. Where it is possible to consolidate a post office in a pub and that is thought to be desirable for the community involved, there is no reason why that cannot be sensitively handled in a way beneficial to the people who live in the area, just as a pub and a village shop can be consolidated on one site.
I was discussing how many pubs are closing each week, but perhaps that point is even better illustrated by looking at what has happened over a slightly longer time scale. Since the 2008 Budget—that is not too long ago—2,200 pubs have closed across Britain.
According to industry sources, the cost in jobs has been 20,000. Over the same period, beer sales have fallen. It is a common myth that more people are drinking more beer than ever before. There are some people who consume alcohol—in beer or in other forms—to excess, especially on Friday or Saturday evenings. I take
the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) that often it is better and safer for them to do that in a well run and responsibly managed pub than to buy off-licence alcohol and drink it in a park or somewhere similar. If the Government’s motivation for levering up taxes is an attempt to choke off demand for beer, I am afraid that that is happening already, to the detriment of both publicans and brewers.
Mr. Bone: The hon. Gentleman is, as usual, making a powerful speech. I just wanted to make the point that this is not only happening in rural areas. In my constituency, many small family pubs have closed. The result is that more teenagers are drinking in parks, leading to antisocial behaviour.
Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. My constituency contains a large town—Taunton—and a second town, Wellington. Three quarters of my constituents live in those two towns, so large parts of my constituency have urban characteristics, and I see the phenomenon that he has described. In the more rural areas, I see how important pubs are—in some cases, they are the only retail outlet in a village, once the post office and shop have gone. So, if people want to put up notices about a local playgroup or information about the village fete, they have to put them up in the pub, because there is no other suitable place.
Lembit Öpik: Does my hon. Friend agree that in many small communities where shops and post offices have closed, the public house actually provides social cohesion, without which the villages would become dormitory villages for larger towns? In those circumstances, the school is also likely to close and the sense of community, which made the village such an attractive place, will be dissipated.
Mr. Browne: That is true, and it is noticeable in rural communities that very few villages have more than one pub, if they have one at all. Those pubs are valued by those who have lived in the village for a long time, but they are also often the main attraction for people looking to move into a rural community, perhaps because they have reached retirement age. They look at a village, say in Somerset, to see whether it would be an attractive place to spend their retirement, and one of the main attractions is a village pub with a nice atmosphere and some good local beers. It is important that both newcomers and long-standing residents support the pub, as it needs sufficient customers to be a viable business for the person who owns and runs it.
David Taylor: If the hon. Gentleman is building the hypothesis that pubs are a good thing but 2,000 a year are closing because of beer duty, it is not a very sound one. He has already mentioned social change and the availability of cheap beer in supermarkets, which are much more important factors. A third—and most important—factor is the attitude of the pubcos, which seem to be less concerned about the pubs that were once part of the chains that they owned and more concerned about maintaining their volume through their various other outlets, including supermarkets. Surely we can encourage them to take a more imaginative approach.
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