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I now turn to the amendments. Obviously, I support and have added my name to amendment 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Dundee, East, which would return bingo to parity with other forms of gambling and retain the 15 per cent. rate. I think that it was the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) who referred to casinos, and the amount of money gambled in casinos is vast. We read in the newspapers stories of people losing tens of thousands of pounds in an evening in a casino, yet that will be taxed at 15 per cent. Bingo is a relatively modest form of gambling, yet that taxation is going up to 22 per cent. Where is the logic? The rate of tax on a form of gambling for the rich and privileged is lower than that on a very soft form of gambling for predominantly working-class people. I cannot see the logic of that. If we are to tax any gambling at 22 per cent., it should be the harder forms, including the gambling done at casinos.
Amendment 22 would make bingo duty chargeable at 16 per cent. rather than 22 per cent., while amendment 23 would make bingo duty chargeable at 17 per cent. I should have tabled a further amendment to make it chargeable at 18 per cent., because the figures provided by the bingo industry are based on a GPT figure of 18 per cent. The industry says that, on the basis of its figures, an increase in bingo duty to 18 per cent. would provide the same amount of money as that suggested in the Red Book. Furthermore, it could live with that; it would find that acceptable.
The amendments were tabled on the basis of figures provided by the industry, which maintains that those figures are more accurate and relevant to where we are at the moment. Through my amendments, I am inviting the Government to reconsider the figures, perhaps with the industry. They should consider a rate of 18 per cent., 17.5 per cent. or whatever. They should also look at the VAT figures suggested by the industry and the VAT returns, and get a more accurate prediction of how the bingo industry will be affected by the changes. The Government should try to determine a rate acceptable to the industry, to Members of the House and to our constituents. That would probably mean an end to the closures.
Amendment 24, also in my name, is similar to amendment 5, tabled by the hon. Member for Dundee, East. It would delay the implementation of the changes. I shall not add to the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the court case, but there seems to be a sensible reason to delay the implementation of the measures and either return to parity or renegotiate with the industry until the court case has been decided. There is room for negotiation with the industry, to find out the true figures for the irrecoverable VAT and the returns from GPT. I hope that the Government will consider the amendments and the bingo industry figures, which I feel they have in their possession. I hope that they will think again.
Mr. Gummer: I should start by saying that I am not a supporter of gambling; I do not like it or approve of it and I find it a pretty boring and unattractive way of spending money or time. However, I should not be imposing my views on the rest of the population. Clearly, large numbers of people get great pleasure from forms of gambling that do minimum harm, and I would have thought that bingo was one of them.
If I were trying to raise money to plug the enormous gap that the Government have created in the national finances, I would be considering the forms of gambling that manifestly do cause significant harm. In casinos, for example, people with more money than sense waste it in a way that is probably socially undesirable. Would it not be much better to increase the tax on casinos and decrease the tax on bingo? That seems an extremely logical argument—so logical that it is difficult to understand why the Government have not accepted it already. However, I have to say that the Government seem to be the most illogical I have ever had to deal with; they seem unable to see simple things in a simple manner.
In my constituency, bingo is concentrated in Felixstowe, a celebrated holiday town. It has a large number of older people, and bingo is an important part of the service that it provides for its residents and for people who come into the town. I want it to go on doing that. It employs people and provides others with something that they obviously enjoy and choose to enjoy. Why on earth should they pay more for that enjoyment than people who go off to Aspinalls and other such gathering places and watering holes? There is an innate snobbishness in this Government. They do not want to have a go at the people who go to the smart places along Curzon street and the rest—they do not want to fall out with them, oh no!
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Mr. Jeremy Browne: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that Lord Mandelson and other key figures in the Government do not enjoy going to bingo clubs in their spare time?
Mr. Gummer: I can imagine the noble Lord in many circumstances, but I had not thought of the bingo club as one of his habitual areas of interest. However, I do not want to make a personal comment about Lord Mandelson, although of course the opportunities are enormous.
There is a continuing theme of insensitivity throughout the whole Finance Bill. The Government seem to have no understanding of how what they are proposing will affect ordinary people. I cannot understand that. The Minister is somebody we all admire; we find her interventions most interesting and she is always most courteous in giving way. I cannot believe that she really wants to subsidise the people who can afford to go to casinos by charging more to the people who go to bingo clubs, and yet she has been defending a change in the taxation system that means that the poorest people are subsiding those who are richer. That does not seem very sensible, but she has defended it. No doubt—I fear this is inevitable—she will get up to explain why it is basic to Labour doctrine that the poor shall subsidise the rich. I find that pretty obnoxious.
Yesterday there was a very impressive speech—I am sure that you heard it, Mr. Deputy Speaker—by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field). The only thing that I disagreed with him about was his belief that only Labour Members have the poor at heart. I hope that a much larger constituency in this House believes that the reason we are here is to defend those who are least able to defend themselves, not only in
terms of their liberties but their ability to exist comfortably in society, to earn a decent living, and to maintain their families in decency. That is why I came into this House. I do not like bullies of any kind; I want to stand up for the bullied rather than the bullies. This Government are constantly standing up for the people who can stand up for themselves, and not standing up for those who cannot. That is why I stand up for a lot of people whose enthusiasm I do not share, in the belief that they should be able to have it and be protected by this House in doing so. We should not only try to ensure that they pay the same level of duty as on other forms of betting but suggest that it might even be a comparatively lower one.
These people have already been hit very hard. I do not think the Government have ever really come to terms with some of the by-blows of their decision on smoking in public places. As an enthusiast for the environment, I am fed up with the fact that we have increased emissions in this country caused by outdoor heating that enables people to smoke outside pubs because nobody was prepared to take the sensible view that a room where no one was serving could be put aside for those who wanted to smoke. No, that could not be done—that was against the theology of the policy—so now we warm the heavens in order that people can smoke outside.
We must also face the fact that the smoking ban has had a direct effect on bingo clubs. I rather like a former Home Secretary who got into terrible trouble for suggesting that the ban would affect his poorest constituents most. I am not arguing that case again; I am merely saying that it has had a real effect on areas where people with limited means, and often with homes that are less comfortable than those of the Exchequer Secretary and her ministerial colleagues, gather together somewhere warm, pleasant and light where they can enjoy themselves. Now they cannot smoke, which may be good for them, but if we are also going to tax them heavily on their bingo because that might be good for them, that is an aspect of the nanny state that I could well do without.
It seems to me that if my constituents want to play bingo, they should be able to do so at a cost that is as low as we can provide for. The taxation should therefore at least be fair, which argues for a lower rate than forms of gambling that only people with greater resources can indulge in.
The Government are doing a most peculiar thing in first lauding themselves for doing something about double taxation and then proceeding to ensure that they make up for it by having bigger single taxation. That does not seem to me a wildly clever argument, because it does not convince anybody. Nobody thinks that the Government are actually being helpful; people just think that they are clearing up an embarrassing anomaly and deciding that they will get the money back in any case.
How much more sensible it would be if the Government came to the House and said, “We’re going to tax the rich more than we do the poor. We’re going to put up the tax on casinos sufficiently to make up for the taxation reduction that we’re going to make on bingo halls.” That is the sort of thing that I would expect from a Labour Government, but we now have to look to the Conservatives for every kind of social support for which we used to look to the Labour Benches. That is true right across the board. On every criminal justice Bill, I have time and again voted to the left of the Labour
party. When we came to discuss the Iraq war, I voted against it because I thought it was wrong, and the Labour party voted for it. Now I have to vote for the poor on bingo, because the Labour party wants to tax them more.
What is really happening is that we are seeing the social revolution that will end on 8 May or whenever it is, when a Conservative Government committed to the poor replace a Labour Government committed to the rich. The public will welcome that with open arms.
Mr. Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich, West) (Lab/Co-op): May I just ask the right hon. Gentleman what his position is on his party’s inheritance tax proposals?
Mr. Gummer: I might ask the hon. Gentleman what his position on his party’s proposals—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Fascinating as those views might be, they have no place in the debate on this particular amendment.
Mr. Gummer: I am sure that I can be guided by you on that matter, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wish I could not be.
We are now facing a Government in disarray. This is another small example of a Government who have lost the plot on every issue, of their just not thinking things through, not recognising what they are doing and not listening. It is not just the Prime Minister who does not listen; nobody else does either. There is a commonality of deafness that is much more serious than swine flu. It is a really serious problem, so I ask the Exchequer Secretary, who is a sensible Minister, to listen to us on this. She must recognise that it does not do the Government any good constantly to push forward with measures that disadvantage the already disadvantaged and advantage those who have already got enough.
It is time we recognised that there are serious gambling issues to consider. Online gambling is particularly serious: people do it in their own homes, in entirely uncontrolled circumstances, with no peer pressure or concern and no one to see. That is where the danger comes, and I would much prefer the Government to attack that through taxation than bingo, which is largely a happy, cheerful activity indulged in by happy, cheerful people who used to vote Labour.
Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I ask the Government to think again. The argument has been well presented three times in the Chamber that bingo is a pleasurable activity for many people, often the elderly and those on low incomes. It is clear that we all want the Government to reconsider.
I support the amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Central (Mr. Illsley) has tabled, and if the Government give us no room for manoeuvre, I will vote for the amendments and against the Government. I do not do that easily, but I will do it.
It is important to understand that although Mecca thoroughly celebrated the removal of VAT, unrecoverable VAT has become a factor. The industry needs time to work out whether the funding stream is adequate and can ensure the quality and delivery of bingo halls—we do not know that yet. We know that the industry says that it can achieve the Red Book estimates and it wants
time to do that. I therefore say to my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary, who has been a friend for many years, that the Government must show us that they will think again.
I think that we would all like gaming and gambling to be treated equally, but they are not. If the measure goes ahead, there will be bingo online. The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) could not have introduced that issue better or more colourfully. Casino online and poker online, sports betting in betting shops, betting exchanges and football pools will all end up with 15 per cent. tax, though that does not apply to casinos. Yet bingo will face tax of 22 per cent. That is not fair.
Not only the money aspect but the other side of the coin concerns me. We speak passionately in the House about the leisure facilities that we would like afforded to our young people. We focus on that appropriately. However, there are not many discussions in the House about the leisure facilities that we should support for our elderly. Indeed, I do not think that I have ever heard a discussion in the House about that. We have talked about free bus travel, which is excellent, but we are considering a leisure activity. I am talking about 400 to 500 people who twice a week go to a pleasing environment, where they meet up—it is very sociable—eat a good meal for a reasonable price and thoroughly enjoy the afternoon or evening. They hope that they will win, although they often do not, but that is part of the game.
We should appreciate that those 400 to 500 people, who are on low incomes and retired, are spending time in pleasing surroundings, having inexpensive fun in a controlled environment. Again, the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal made it clear that the environment is controlled, not only because people watch how much each other spends or perhaps drinks, but because if one person does not show up, a network starts up, with people asking, “What’s happened to old Fred?” and there is serious concern. For me, therefore, bingo is a critical bit of kit.
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I was once asked to call the numbers. I stress once; I was not exactly good at it, so I was not asked to do it again. The elderly thought that I was a deplorable caller; the management thought that training might possibly have helped. However, for me, it was important to see what was happening and to be part of it.
People have spoken about the employment opportunities. A critical aspect of those opportunities is that 70 per cent. of those employed in bingo are women. Bingo is an easy piece of the employment world for women to fit in with their families or their age, perhaps because their levels of activity are much more controllable in that environment than they would be in many others. We are talking about a particular group of women. They do not earn a fortune, but they earn enough to make life bearable. However, it is not just that those employed in bingo are women. Oftentimes, Mecca Bingo—and, I am sure, other organisations—give training. Youngsters get national vocational qualification opportunities.
All round, bingo is a good leisure activity which we should support. I therefore ask those on my Front Bench—I am asking them very carefully—please to think again. None of us will object to their thinking
again; indeed, the whole House will appreciate it. Bingo is a small part of leisure activities overall and it will produce a small amount of money for the Treasury. However, that amount will be smaller if there are further club closures on top of the 90 clubs that have closed so far. Surely spending that small amount is worth while given that so many people enjoy so much from the activity.
Mr. Hands: Remarkably, clause 20, on the taxation of bingo, has attracted more amendments than any other clause in this year’s Finance Bill, which reflects the Government’s botched approach to such an important sector.
I spoke for more than an hour on clauses 20 and 112, and I hope to speak for a rather shorter time today. However, let me make the Opposition’s position clear from the outset. We cannot see any reasonable or logical justification for bingo to be taxed at 22 per cent. while the remainder of the gaming industry is generally taxed at 15 per cent. We would like the anomaly to be rectified as soon as time and the public finances allow it. However, rather like the hon. Member for Barnsley, Central (Mr. Illsley), we have found it incredibly difficult to get any sense out of the Treasury about its figures on either bingo or the ongoing court case, the consideration of which formed the centrepiece of our amendment in the Committee of the whole House, which took place two months and two Exchequer Secretaries ago.
Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): Although I do not necessarily share the anger about casinos expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), not least because many are in my constituency, I am fairly positive about a lot of the online offerings. What is most perverse, however, is that online bingo is charged at 15 per cent., yet bingo in a club, which has so many desirable social outcomes, for all the reasons so adequately pointed out by the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor), is charged at 22 per cent. That is a quite ludicrous state of affairs.
Mr. Hands: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We touched on that issue in the debate on clause 114, which covers the duty on online gaming. As was pointed out, there is now an incredible anomaly, in that playing online bingo will now attract far less tax. Surely we should all recognise the social benefits of bingo clubs for their clientele. It is therefore an incredible anomaly that we should be taxing the online version significantly less than the club version.
The Bill’s consideration in Committee of the whole House was, as I said, some two months and two Exchequer Secretaries ago, and we have seen some amazing figures since then. During the debate on clause 20 in May, I questioned the Government’s figures for the cost of removing VAT from participation fees—in other words, the theoretical cost of the linked clause 112, which we have already debated. I was referring to the cost assuming that VAT was being paid in all areas.
We have now obtained more information on how the Government arrived at their figure of £50 million, through the answers to some written questions. On 18 May, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury replied
that the cost of removing VAT on main-stage bingo—the standard form of the game—was some £20 million. In one of her few acts during her short-lived nine-day reign in the Treasury, the hon. Member for Burnley (Kitty Ussher), the current Minister’s immediate predecessor, added on 10 June that the cost of removing VAT on interval bingo—the newer form that the High Court ruled on in the VAT tribunal case—was some £25 million. That adds up to a total of £45 million. As I said in the Public Bill Committee, I therefore assumed that the remaining £5 million of the £50 million related to participation fees on equal chance games other than bingo—principally poker.
That is the estimate relating to the £50 million in the Red Book, as I see it. In any case, the estimates for 2009-10 back up the argument that I made in the debates on clauses 20 and 112 that the industry will, in practice, pay more as a result of all the measures in the Finance Bill. We are not aware of any major operator paying VAT on interval bingo and, after the court ruling, it is hard to believe that any operator would even contemplate doing so. As I have said, a number were also withholding VAT receipts on main-stage bingo, and that number is now likely to swell. It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that actual receipts would have been below £20 million for 2009-10, before the court ruling, and that they could now be zero.
However, the Red Book shows that the increase in bingo duty is expected to raise £35 million. Far from reducing the effective tax rate, as the Minister’s pre-predecessor insisted, the Government’s proposals appear to constitute a tax hike of at least £15 million. This matter cropped up yet again in the Budget debate, and the Financial Secretary was wide of the mark when he said:
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