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political parties and elections Bill (programme) (NO.4)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Political Parties and Elections Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 20 October 2008 (Political Parties and Elections Bill (Programme))-
Consideration of Lords Amendments
1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at this day's sitting at the moment of interruption.
2. The Lords Amendments shall be considered in the following order, namely Nos. 11, 12, 33 to 47, 50, 96 to 98, 105, 106, 1 to 8, 51 to 65, 99, 9, 10, 13, 28, 66 to 68, 14, 48, 49, 100 to 102, 104, 15 to 24, 103, 25 to 27, 69 to 92, 107, 29 to 32, 93 to 95.
Subsequent stages
3. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put.
4. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.-( Mr. Wills.)
The House divided: Ayes 282, Noes 194.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Ms Dawn Butler and
Mr. John Heppell
NOES
Alexander, Danny
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorries, Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mason, John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Paice, Mr. James
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Wishart, Pete
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Jeremy Wright and
Mr. Philip Dunne
Question accordingly agreed to.
Political Parties and Elections Bill
Consideration of Lords amendments
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I must draw the House's attention to the fact that privilege is involved in Lords amendment 33. If the House agrees to that amendment, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.
Declaration as to source of donation
5.37 pm
The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. Jack Straw): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 11.
Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendment 12, and Government motion to disagree, and Government amendments (a) to (f) in lieu.
Mr. Straw: Before I deal with the substance of the amendments, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder whether I would be allowed to put on record my deep shock and sorrow at the death of Lord Kingsland, of which I learned yesterday. I have recently had a great deal to do with Lord Kingsland, although I did not know him particularly well before that. I talked to him only last Thursday in the context of the Parliamentary Standards Bill. I know that I speak for all Labour Members in saying that everybody who dealt with him found him utterly delightful, courteous, and firm in his opinions but ready to concede that others have opinions. I would like to send my deepest condolences to his family and friends, and to his party.
The amendments arise from those moved by Lord Campbell-Savours in the other place during a well-attended debate on 15 June. At that time-I had expressed this view in this House-the Government advised the other place to vote against amendments that would have had the effect of making donations impermissible unless the donors met standard conditions for a permissible donation and, in addition, were ordinarily resident and domiciled within the United Kingdom. My noble Friend Lord Bach spoke, at Hansard column 914, about the Government's serious concerns about the amendments on what he described as "principled, practical and legal grounds", and set out the position of the Government. It is no great secret that that has indeed been the Government's position.
No one, least of all myself, has a difficulty with the idea that those who make donations to political parties, like those who participate more widely, should have a clear and practical connection with our democracy, not just a technical one. The issue is not one of sentiment but about the matters to which my noble Friend referred in the other place.
As my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said a short while ago, we in this House have to take account of sentiment here, among all parties and on the Back Benches as well as the Front Benches, as well as sentiment in the other place. That does not mean that we simply accept every amendment that is moved, but two things
were striking when the matter came before the other place. One was the extent of the alliance that led to the amendments tabled by Lord Campbell-Savours going through, and the other was the difficulty that both the Conservative and Labour Front-Bench teams, if I may say so, found in encouraging otherwise loyal party supporters into the Lobby.
There has subsequently been a lot of discussion, and I understand the concern of the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) about the short time in which the amendments were tabled. We sought to consider actively whether there was any basis on which we could accept the principle behind the Lords amendments. However, in producing our amendments we had to acknowledge that although Lord Campbell-Savours did his best with his amendments, which are found in Lords amendments 11 and 12 and in clause 9 of the Bill as it came out of the other place, they were completely technically unworkable and complicated. I think that Lord Campbell-Savours and his supporters in this place accept that.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): I assume that the amendments relate not just to financial contributions but to benefit in kind. I have campaigned in American elections in the past, which would clearly have a cost. If an American student wished to come across here and campaign during the next general election for a Member of Parliament of whichever political party, would that be seen as a benefit in kind? Would it have to be registered somewhere?
Mr. Straw: I am afraid that I had no notice of that question, but I shall try to provide the hon. Gentleman with a clear answer before the end of the debate. I hope that that is helpful.
Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): One of the things about which some of us on the Labour Benches feel strongest is the allegation that there has been no debate on these substantial and substantive issues. It is true that we did not have a debate about them in this place, much to the sadness of some of us on the Back Benches, but there has been forthright debate led by my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) about what many of us who believe in democracy want to do-outlaw those from abroad who wish to buy elections. That is why we thoroughly welcome the Government's change of heart.
Mr. Straw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. How much time is spent on legislation in this House is a wider issue to consider, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) and the Committee of Back Benchers of all parties that he is establishing will consider that in much more detail. I regret that the matter was not discussed on the Floor of the House on Report some months ago. One curiosity is that, in comparison with the time for which previous Parliaments sat, we are not sitting for fewer days or hours overall. The crucial issue is how the time is used and the balance between legislation and non-legislation.
Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind):
I am sympathetic to the sentiments that the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) expressed a moment ago. Notwithstanding reasonable
Government concerns about the practicalities and enforceability of Lords amendments 11 and 12, does the Secretary of State share the public concern, as well as that in the House, about the need to restrict the definition of "permissible donors", and to exclude people from abroad who do not participate properly and fully in our tax system? We could thus exclude people such as Lord Ashcroft, who has bankrolled the Conservative party for many years. That abuse of the electoral system must be stopped, and stopped quickly.
5.45 pm
Mr. Straw: I understand the hon. Gentleman's argument. Part of what concerned Lord Bach, other colleagues and me was ensuring some consistency between the regime for donations and that for more general participation in our system. As I said, the Government have decided that it is possible to accept the burden of the amendments, and I now want, if I may, to get some important points on the record, not least to take account of the point that the right hon. Member for Horsham made about the short time for tabling amendments.
Lords amendments 11 and 12 refer to residence for the purposes of the Income Tax Act 2007, but residence is not appropriately or meaningfully defined. Part 14 simply sets out residence in certain specific cases. The amendments fail correctly to refer to the place where an individual is not domiciled. That risks casting unnecessary doubt on the way in which the provisions are supposed to work. The Government have therefore tabled amendments (a) to (f) in lieu of amendments 11 and 12. However, let me state from the outset that the amendments do not fully deal with the problems these the defects of the amendments in their current form cause. Should amendments (a) to (f) be agreed by the House today, the Government will table, when the Bill returns to another place, such further amendments as they consider necessary to put a fair and workable scheme in place. I am happy to make the drafts of those amendments available to members of other parties. I do not ask them to endorse them, but if they find it helpful to see them, it is our responsibility to provide them, and I happy to do that. I recognise the frustration about the time available.
I also want to make it clear that any restriction on permissibility of donations-one of the major problems with the proposition-linked to an individual's taxation status would not currently be fully enforceable without further steps being taken. Should the amendments be agreed, we would want to discuss the implications carefully with the parties and the Electoral Commission before the new restriction came into force.
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