| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Can I please get from the Deputy Leader of the House a specific answer as to the question-initially asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young)-why the Government did not consider referring this matter to the Procedure Committee and/or the Modernisation Committee? Both are respected Committees of this House and would have been able to do the job that we are talking about very adequately. I take my right hon. Friend's advice that the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) could have been appointed as the Chairman of the Modernisation Committee. As the longest-serving Conservative member of the Committee I have to say that I would have been honoured and privileged to serve under the hon. Gentleman's chairmanship. I hope that I speak with some authority on this matter, having chaired the Procedure Committee for two Parliaments, as well as having been on the Modernisation Committee since it was set up early in the Blair Government, in 1997.
Barbara Keeley: The answer to the hon. Gentleman's questions lies in what he is saying: those Committees will continue. This is a time-limited Committee to look at a specific set of reforms that we hope can bear fruit in the next Session, which is a very different thing.
Sir Nicholas Winterton: We hope that that is the case. However, one can always be a little suspicious-I mean no disrespect to the hon. Member for Cannock Chase-when a Committee is established by the Government and the Chairman is automatically put forward by the Government. I hope that I am not in any way breaching the guidance that you gave the Chamber a few minutes ago, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Bone: Are not the Government to be congratulated on getting so many people here and making no attempt to restrict the time for the debate, so that all Members will get a chance to speak?
Sir Nicholas Winterton: The Deputy Speaker has given some guidance, and I shall certainly endeavour to keep to that, although I believe that the criteria for the Committee-its mission as spelt out on the Order Paper-should be subject to some comment in this debate.
I am very pleased that the Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) took on board my intervention, in which I said that the House could take control of its business only if the House itself, or a Committee of the House, ideally under a Back-Bench Chairman, could draw up and table Standing Orders that governed how the House proceeds and how legislation is dealt with. Without that, all the wonderful euphemistic statements about what we hope to achieve cannot have results.
I say to the hon. Member for Cannock Chase that I hope that he will be a very aggressive Chairman. I hope that he will be-I say this with some difficulty-a radical Chairman, or could I say a traditional progressive Chairman, so that the right decisions will be taken.
That leads me to my second question to the Deputy Leader of the House. I think that she may have gone some way to allaying my concern, which is that all the recommendations of the Committee, when it reports to the House on or after 13 November, should be put to the House to be decided on a genuinely free vote. I say that with the Patronage Secretary looking at me with a friendly smile.
This has been said by a number of speakers already, but this House now has a unique opportunity to restore some integrity and independence to the Back Benches and to the Floor of the House, so that Members can again carry the confidence of their constituents.
Let me express another concern. I was delighted with the speech that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mark Fisher) made. He leads the Parliament First group with great intellectual rigour and distinction, and he has done a great service to the House. I should, however, express my sorrow, and that of other Opposition Members, that he was not nominated as a member of the Committee, because he could bring great wisdom to it. I suppose that I should declare an interest, in that I am sorry that I was not included either, but perhaps I am in some ways a little too controversial. However, I have, with a combination of my heart and my head, the interests of this Chamber very much at the core of what I want done in the House before I leave in 10 or 11 months' time. If, with the other Back Benchers of the House, I can help to restore the integrity that the House needs to do its job properly, in order to deal with matters such as programming, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) raised, we will have done a service.
The amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) is certainly worth serious consideration. I would not go quite as far as my hon. Friend in saying that I would support the hon. Gentleman if he pushed it to a vote, but it would do a great deal for the reputation of this House if important Ministers who lead critical Departments but who sit in the House of Lords were brought here to deal with important statements at the Dispatch Box in this Chamber. I do not believe that that would be an over-revolutionary idea. It deserves serious consideration, and I hope that the hon. Member for Cannock Chase will give it that consideration, whether or not the hon. Member for Thurrock presses his amendment to a vote.
Let us take this opportunity to do good to the House of Commons. It has gone through a difficult period. Many people feel very unhappy about the way in which the House and individual Members have been treated. Let us restore to the House the authority that will enable it to stand up, not only for its own interests, but against the too often overweening power of the Executive.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Nicholas Brown) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
The House divided: Ayes 218, Noes 41.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Cooper, Rosie
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gapes, Mike
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Grogan, Mr. John
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lepper, David
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
McCabe, Steve
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McKechin, Ann
McDonnell, John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mudie, Mr. George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Robertson, John
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Stewart, Ian
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. John Heppell and
Mary Creagh
NOES
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Breed, Mr. Colin
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Philip
Duddridge, James
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Foster, Mr. Don
Fraser, Christopher
Gidley, Sandra
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heath, Mr. David
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Leech, Mr. John
Lidington, Mr. David
Mackinlay, Andrew
Price, Adam
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Thurso, John
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Watkinson, Angela
Williams, Stephen
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Christopher Chope and
Mr. Peter Bone
Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr. Harper: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Given that the title of the motion is "Select Committee on Reform of the House of Commons", how can the fact that the Government allowed only an hour and a half for debate and the Chairman of the Committee voted in favour of the closure give Back Benchers any confidence? Is that not an abuse of the House, and does not it negate what we have just voted on?
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con):
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In your opinion, is it not wrong that the person who was responsible for the
debate in the first place-my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope)-was unable to make a speech, when people who had been against such a debate-
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must not question the decisions of the Chair about who is called to speak in the debate. Responsibility for terminating the debate lay with the Chair on accepting the closure motion. The Chair does not have to explain decisions, but some might think that it was fairly obvious why it was reasonable to conclude the debate at that point.
Question put accordingly , That the amendment be made.
The House divided: Ayes 52, Noes 202.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Breed, Mr. Colin
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Philip
Drew, Mr. David
Duddridge, James
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Fisher, Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fraser, Christopher
Gidley, Sandra
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heath, Mr. David
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Howarth, David
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Lynne
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Leech, Mr. John
Lidington, Mr. David
McCafferty, Chris
McDonnell, John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Munn, Meg
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, David
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Thurso, John
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Watkinson, Angela
Williams, Stephen
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Peter Bone and
Paul Flynn
NOES
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Cooper, Rosie
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gapes, Mike
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Grogan, Mr. John
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lepper, David
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
McCabe, Steve
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McKechin, Ann
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mudie, Mr. George
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Prentice, Bridget
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Robertson, John
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Stewart, Ian
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. John Heppell and
Mary Creagh
Question accordingly negatived.
Main Question put and agreed to.
(1) That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and make recommendations on the following matters:
(a) the appointment of members and chairmen of select committees,
(b) the appointment of the Chairman and Deputy Chairmen of Ways and Means;
(c) scheduling business in the House;
(d) enabling the public to initiate debates and proceedings in the House; and
(e) such other matters as appear to the Committee to be closely connected with the matters set out above, and to report on these matters by 13 November 2009;
(2) That the Committee also consider such other matters as may be referred to it from time to time;
(3) That the Committee consist of eighteen Members;
(4) That Mr Graham Allen, Mr Clive Betts, Mr Graham Brady, Mr David Clelland, Mr David Drew, Natascha Engel, Dr Evan Harris, David Howarth, Mr Michael Jack, Mr Greg Knight, Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Mr Chris Mullin, Dr Nick Palmer, Martin Salter, Dr Phyllis Starkey, Mr Andrew Tyrie, Dr Tony Wright and Sir George Young be members of the Committee;
(5) That Dr Tony Wright be Chairman of the Committee;
(6) That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; to adjourn from place to place, to report from time to time and to appoint specialist advisers;
(7) That this Order be a Standing Order of the House until the end of the present Parliament.
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |