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The virtues of investment-led planning include a focus on what will work, with flexibility, but without bureaucracy. The Government have been working with
colleagues from the LGA, local authorities and RDAs to develop guidance for joint investment planning. The principles that we are following mean that that should be light touch and partnership based.
New clause 9 was tabled by several of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) in her key position as the Chairman of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government. It calls for the Government to place a duty on local authorities to develop, in consultation with members of the public, a strategy for the provision of public toilets in their area, and to review this on an annual basis. The Government believe that decisions about the provision of local services and amenities such as public toilets are best made at local level, so we want to devolve the powers, resources and flexibility to local authority partnerships. We have therefore taken concerted action to empower communities, so that people have more influence over local decisions. We believe that that is the right way to bring about the changes that people want to see in their areas and is a better and more sustainable approach than always providing direction from the centre on how particular public services should work, which can constrain the ability of councils to respond in the ways that best meet the range of local needs and priorities.
As in other parts of the Bill, we have tried to introduce ways in which people, through petitions and requests to which councils must respond, can raise the needs of their community. In 2007, we undertook to consult all relevant bodies about the issue of public toilets. As a result, we published our strategic guide on improving access to better quality toilets in March 2008. It highlighted the range of powers and approaches available to local authorities and their partners that can help them to improve publicly accessible toilets in their area. That included further guidance on the community toilet schemes, under which members of the public can use toilet facilities, free of charge, in local businesses such as cafés, restaurants, pubs and public buildings.
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We believe that the right approach is for parts of the Bill to be used by local councils to influence such provision. Rather than imposing a duty from the centre-in many ways, we have tried to pull back from that-we want local people to have means of raising such issues and making councils more accessible and responsible. We would rather do that than always say from the centre, "This is how you need to address your toilet issues."
New clause 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley), is similar to his proposal in Committee, where he explained that he wished to close a loophole that he thought would allow councils to meet their housing targets by applying for planning permission in another local authority area. I wrote to him on 25 July and explained-I hope-that houses built in a particular area can count only towards the planned housing supply for that area. His new clause is therefore unnecessary. It proposes that no local authority should be able to meet its housing target by promoting
"an area for housing allocation within the area of another local authority nor count such an allocation towards its housing target without the agreement of that authority."
I reiterate that local authorities can express their opinions on proposals in a neighbouring authority's area. Indeed, they are required by law to consult each other. However, local authorities have no powers to require another local authority to accommodate housing numbers allocated to them. Our policy is that local authorities should accommodate the level of housing identified for their area in the regional spatial strategy or regional strategy. We support councils working together so that they can decide between them how best to accommodate their respective housing needs across a sub-region area. However, they cannot simply require another local authority to accommodate the number of houses allocated to them.
Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): Is it not a concern that, at an examination in public, Luton council, for example, could say, "Oh no, it is mad to do it in our area. The best way of doing it is to put it in Hertfordshire."? If the inspector nods in that direction, it becomes a way for a council to bounce a neighbouring authority and get out of its own obligations. That is not something to be encouraged.
Ms Winterton: As I have said, we try to encourage joint working. If local authorities disagree, an independent inspector has a role in making a decision on the proposals based on the evidence available and the policy set out in the regional strategy and by the Government. Again, I stress that in setting out the regional strategy, the local authorities will have to come together and agree on such matters. It is not possible simply to impose a proposal; we encourage joint working. Furthermore, an independent inspector will have a role, if overall there is a disagreement.
I have gone into some detail, but I hope that my explanations of the reasons for bringing forward the Government's amendments have been convincing. I hope, too, that I have given enough reassurance in my explanations about the other amendments to persuade right hon. and hon. Members not to press them.
Mr. Paul Goodman (Wycombe) (Con): I rise to speak to our new clause 16, which would give local councils a power of general competence, as the Minister said, and our new clause 15, which seeks to delegate power to local authorities. As new clause 16 is related to Government new clauses 19 and 20 and Government amendments 28 and 29, as the Minister observed, I shall turn to them before dealing with our new clause 16, which goes wider.
Before I do that, however, let me pause to say, following the Minister's remarks, that we will listen carefully to the debate on new clauses 1 and 9. I am familiar with the arguments put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) in Committee. Our Front-Bench colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), is looking closely at the matter raised by new clause 9. The Minister made a reasonable point about the undesirability of putting new burdens on local authorities on to the statute book, but our view is not carved in stone and we will listen carefully to what she has to say. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson), I welcome back the Minister. She is the one fixed point in the turning world of the Government Front Bench. Since Committee we sadly seem to have lost the hon. Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry), but it is good to see the right hon. Lady in her place.
The Minister went through the background to Government new clauses 19 and 20 in some detail, and there is no need for me to repeat what she said in taking us through the LAML case and what happened in court. However, it may be worth pointing out that LAML is an all-party body, in that Conservative-controlled councils such as Croydon, Hammersmith and Fulham, and Harrow are members. Also, both the Local Government Association and Chris Leslie, the director of the New Local Government Network and a former and-who knows?-perhaps future Member of this House, were disappointed with the judgment. It is also worth pointing out that in response to the Government's consultation paper on strengthening local democracy-of which more later-the LGA said that the
"CLG's proposals in response to the LAML case...are quite unsatisfactory. Specific legislation on mutual insurance would do nothing to tackle the wider limitations of the existing well-being power which the case has highlighted."
Let me pause at this point and say to the Minister that we are inclined to give her new clauses a fair wind. She made much of the fact that our new clause to introduce a new power of a general competence would not do the trick on mutual insurance. Our answer is that we are not seeking-at least not at this stage-to delete her provisions on mutual insurance, so they would stand. However, we have a couple of questions and concerns that are worth raising. We are curious to know whether the Department has made any assessment, as it should have, of any risks to local authorities. We have received indications from some sources of that possibility, so we are curious to know what the Minister thinks about that. Also, new clause 19(5) refers to guidance. If the Minister has not already told the House when she intends to issue that guidance, it would be welcome if she did so.
An examination of the clauses on mutual insurance naturally leads us to the wider subject of the power of general competence. I am afraid that that leads me to quote the LGA-and, indeed, Chris Leslie-again. It said that the LAML judgment demonstrated "weaknesses" in
"the scope of the 'well-being' power. This adds to the need for legislation to create a power of general competence for local government. This is essential in order to regain the flexible power it was believed the Local Government Act 2000 had created".
In its response to the consultation that I mentioned a moment ago, the LGA expressed its support for a
"general duty to devolve",
"the weak approach taken to the flaws in the power of well-being, where both we and the CLG Select Committee have advocated a new power of general competence."
The LGA went on to repeat that point in its briefing on the Bill.
I am sorry to quote Chris Leslie again, but he has said:
"There is an apparent consensus in Parliament across all parties in favour of a 'power of general competence' for local authorities."
That is certainly true among the Conservatives. We have set out the desirability of such a power in our document "Control Shift". That was also the view of the Liberal Democrats when we debated these matters in Committee, although that seems a very long time ago.
I am not sure that the Government have joined that consensus, however. Their view as stated in Committee was that
"more needs to be done to encourage local authorities to use the well-being power". --[ Official Report, Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Public Bill Committee, 18 June 2009; c. 253.]
The Minister also said in Committee that she was interested in having discussions with local authorities about powers, and she essentially gave the same answer today. Our judgment is that, given the views of the LGA and the New Local Government Network, and the consensus that is emerging, if there is no good reason not to put a power of general competence on the statute book, simply having further ministerial discussions between the Department and the local authorities does not seem to justify postponing a vote on the matter.
We tabled a number of probing amendments in Committee, and we took the view that, if the Minister could persuade us that they were deficient and would have an effect other than the one that we sought, we would not press them to a vote. We did not do so. She did not suggest today that our proposal was deficient in any way. As I have said, we are not proposing to block her proposals on mutual insurance. I therefore give notice that we might seek to press our new clause 16 to a vote.
Speaking of pressing matters to a vote brings me to new clause 15, which deals with the delegation of powers to local authorities. The Minister spoke about that earlier, and I want to put it into the context of the structure established by the Bill, which was debated on Second Reading and which we considered in Committee. Part 5 of the Bill sets out a regional strategy, and it is worth examining it in the context of the Department's own view of the representations that it received in response to the sub-national review. Its response stated that the Government
"expect the RDAs to delegate responsibility for spending to local authorities or sub-regions wherever possible unless there is a clear case for returning spending to the regional level".
It is in that spirit that we have tabled new clause 15, which would enable Ministers to exercise precisely the kind of delegating power that the Secretary of State might think necessary. It would require the Secretary of State to make proposals with RDAs for a scheme of delegation for the discharge of their functions-such as housing or planning-to a local authority or a group of local authorities.
If I am a bit hesitant about these functions, it is because-as my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) pointed out in Committee-the Department's own policy document on regional strategies states, as early as paragraph 2.2 that the Bill
"does not specify what the regional strategy should contain."
At any rate, our new clause would give the Secretary of State the power to discharge functions, having consulted two local authorities.
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The Minister frequently argued in Committee that the powers of Westminster and Whitehall should be given due weight. She really cannot complain today that our new clause 15 does not do that. Ultimately, it gives
the Secretary of State the power to make the proposals for the delegation of responsibility, as the Department's response to the sub-national review indicated that it wants to. The Local Government Association said in a further comment on the consultation paper that
"partnerships of local authorities have far more direct accountability than the plethora of national and regional quangos that currently make decisions that affect local people."
I think that the LGA has the balance of that judgment right, which is why I give notice that we may well press the new clause to the vote.
As is traditional on these occasions, I end by quoting the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), who always puts things more bluntly and directly than I could. What he said on Second Reading has gone down in the annals of Hansard and the House should be reminded of it:
"Most people have had enough of this. Why can we not cut away this plethora of bodies and focus on democratically elected authorities... That is why I say to her"-
not the present Minister but the right hon. Member for Salford (Hazel Blears), when she was Secretary of State-
"that this is complete nonsense and that we have had enough... of... all these buzzwords. I say take it back."-[ Official Report, 1 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 35.]
On the Conservative Benches, we can do no more than echo that blunt and direct language. As I said, unless the Minister has any further revelations for us, we intend to press our new clauses to the vote.
Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): I rise to speak in favour of new clause 9, which was tabled by me and a number of other members of the Communities and Local Government Committee. I say in parenthesis that I also support the various ideas around for allowing Select Committees to put forward amendments in a more direct way than has been possible on this occasion.
The new clause arises from one of the recommendations in the Select Committee's report on the provision of public toilets, published in October 2008. For the record and for the benefit of Members who may not have read through the report, which I commend as an interesting piece of bedtime reading, I shall briefly explain why the inquiry was undertaken and why it excited such enormous public interest. I have not been involved in a Communities and Local Government inquiry that has excited as much public interest as that one on the provision of public toilets. I shall also explain why we thought it necessary for councillors to have a duty to draw up a strategy. Towards the end of my remarks, I shall explore the assurances that the Minister sought to give and see whether I can tease out some more enthusiastic ones, which might lead me not to press the new clause to the vote.
The Select Committee looked into the provision of public toilets because there was ample evidence across the country of a decline and because an increasing number of councils had come to the view that the direct provision of public toilets by councils was too expensive-allowing their toilets to fall into disrepair, or, in many cases, to be completely demolished. There is nevertheless a huge public interest in ensuring an adequate supply of public toilets in every area of the country and that any such provision should be of high quality.
Although this is clearly an issue for every single member of the public, there are certain groups among the population who feel particularly deeply about it. One of those groups is, obviously, the elderly. I think it is a biological fact that as they get older, both men and women tend to have a more frequent need to use public toilets, and those needs become considerably more pressing.
These things are often not spoken of publicly, but I think it is extremely important for us to do so. The ability of elderly people to have a nice day out, to go shopping or to visit the public library is often constrained by the fact that they are not absolutely certain that, should they need to use a public toilet, one will be conveniently available, and they fear that if one is available, it will not necessarily be very clean or a pleasant place and they will feel slight concern about using it. That is why many of the organisations representing elderly people, such as Age Concern, have been so active in raising the issue of the need for adequate public toilet provision, and why they have been so supportive of our report. In fact, they have subsequently used it as a campaigning tool with local groups in an attempt to raise the profile of the issue with their local councils.
The issue also affects families with young children. As we all know, young children often have pressing and urgent needs to use public toilet facilities. They tend not to look ahead, so to speak, and go to the loo before they leave home. They swear blind that they do not need to use a loo, and then suddenly and very urgently need to use one. Although the public tend to turn a blind eye to small persons using the natural greenery of the landscape to camouflage these vital activities, it would clearly be much more satisfactory if there were an adequate supply of toilets so that families out with young children could use the proper facilities when they require them, rather than being forced to rush into the nearest bank-should one be open-to ask whether they can use the staff facilities.
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Lady is saying, but why does she think that we need a national strategy? Why can we not simply rely on responsible local councils to make such provision? An example is Christchurch borough council, which has won the loo of the year award on many occasions.
Dr. Starkey: The hon. Gentleman may not have noticed that the Committee was not asking for a national strategy. It was asking for local authorities to be given a duty to draw up their own local strategies in consultation with their local populations. The best councils are already doing that, but not all councils are. That is why we suggested that every council should have a duty to draw up its own strategy. We are not asking for councils to be given a duty to provide public toilets directly-I shall say more about that in a second-but we are suggesting that they should have a duty to draw up a strategy. I note what the Minister said about the balance between central and local government and whether we should be imposing a duty, and I am susceptible to that argument myself. I think that it is a question of where we place the balance, and I shall say more about that shortly as well.
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