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The same goes for education. On a subject as big as education, it is irrational to believe that one member should not only run things and be politically responsible
for the service, but be honour-bound to listen to the wider group voice and the public as well. That is a horrendous task in local government. There is very little sharing of knowledge or ability, and it frustrates people. It is interesting to analyse how many people serve only one term on local authorities nowadays. They do not stay the course because they feel unfulfilled and let down by the concept, which they thought that they could bring something to. How inappropriate is it that good people who came into local government because they have something to offer are unable to deliver it? They leave very quickly, for that reason. If I were the Government Minister responsible for this, I would cherish those people, cultivate them and make them think that they had a future in local government.
How many of us came to this House because of the time that we spent in local government? We learned that we could contribute there, but we all contributed to a system in which committees played a part, and in which we became a junior member of a committee and then, with more expertise, moved on to become a committee chairman or an opposition spokesman. The system no longer works like that, however. Now, only a small group has control of the policy. Even that group-unless it is exceptionally lucky-does not have the ability to co-operate easily with the rest of the council. The opportunities are not there. Members do not want to meet every week as a full council, but many of them would love to meet once a fortnight or once a month as a committee to deal with important matters such as housing, social services and education.
I hope that the hon. Member for Thurrock will press his new clause to a vote. He is not saying, "Make it change." He is saying, "At least give local authorities the chance." I hope that the Government will recognise this opportunity to right a grievous error of judgment on their part by supporting the hon. Gentleman tonight and by giving local authorities what they want. The Government continually say, "Let people choose." Well, for goodness' sake, let local government choose the best way for it to govern itself.
David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): I recall that, in his early days in local government, the hon. Gentleman was a notable Labour councillor for many years. He steadily went to pot in the years that followed. I hope that we are good friends now, however. Does he agree that the approach that we have seen over more than a decade of trying to turn almost all local authorities into pale, tiny shadows of Parliament is clearly not working? If the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) were to be incorporated in the Bill, does the hon. Gentleman believe that any large local authorities would want to return to the committee system? Clearly, many of the small ones would, but does he think the large ones would as well?
Mr. Hancock: I think that they would rush to seize the opportunity. Hon. Members would not believe the enthusiasm that exists in local government to return to that system. I do not meet many local councillors who believe that the current system offers satisfaction or an opportunity to play a part, or that there is a future for them in local authorities. That is just not the case.
I remember when, long ago, Michael Heseltine was Secretary of State for the Environment. He said that he wanted to see local authorities run on the American system, in which people turn up once a year to agree and sign the contracts, after which the authority is left to run itself. What a mistake that would have been! Yet we have gone halfway towards that here, and it is a mistake.
I had hoped that this Government, with their roots in local authorities, would have wanted to see a return to the previous system, and to give people the opportunity to feel that they can really play a part in their local community. The present system does nothing but turn people off and turn people away, and that is to be regretted. I hope that, when the Minister responds, she will not be apologetic for the past. I hope that she will instead say, "Okay, hands up, we made a mistake. Now we will try to get it right. We will give local authorities a chance." The hon. Member for Thurrock is offering that opportunity tonight, and if I were the Minister, I would grab it with both hands.
Ms Rosie Winterton: This group of amendments focuses on the local democracy section of the Bill, and we can tell from the lively nature of the debate just how passionately right hon. and hon. Members feel about the issue.
Speaking of passion, I shall start with new clause 10, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer), which deals with referendums. It is identical to an amendment that we debated in Committee. As I explained during that debate, the principal local authorities in England currently enjoy considerable flexibility to hold advisory referendums and local polls using their powers under section 116 of the Local Government Act 2003. That power is widely drawn, and it gives councils maximum freedom and flexibility to hold referendums on any issue relating to their functions or their powers of well-being, as set out in the Local Government Act 2000.
The existing power to hold referendums has been used many times by councils to seek the views of their communities on matters of local interest. For example, the London borough of Sutton council is currently holding a local poll on whether to keep a piece of graffiti that was produced by a well-known graffiti artist. I am not sure whether the referendum on the Manchester congestion charge was held under that legislation, but my hon. Friend discussed that matter. The use of this power could increase as a result of the petitions clauses in this Bill. Through our proposed petition scheme in part 1 of the Bill, councils might well decide to hold a local poll as part of their substantive response, as required by clause 14, to a petition with the specified number of signatures. We would welcome such a development as an appropriate means of involving local communities in a council's decision-making process. That is, of course, if councils choose to make greater use of the power as part of their response to petitions.
At the heart of these debates lies the issue of local democratically elected bodies having the power to choose whether they want to hold referendums. While the petitions provided for in chapter 2 of part 1 of the Bill, and the existing powers in section 116 of the Local Government Act 2003, permit councils to hold such referendums, the new clause would require them to set up a facility and agree a scheme for holding them.
Councils would also be required to hold a referendum in circumstances set out in their referendum schemes. The new clause would therefore impose an additional uncosted burden on councils. As I made clear in Committee, we believe that accepting the new clause as it stands would be a step too far.
Yes, we require councils to carry out certain actions in relation to petitions, but we do not adopt the same approach to the holding of referendums. Some might say that that is contradictory, but I say that the two issues are very different. Our approach to petitions in chapter 2 rightly addresses the issues identified by the Local Government Association survey, which found that only 28 per cent. of the 102 councils that responded guarantee an automatic response to petitions submitted by the public.
Mr. Hancock: Is the Minister saying that her only reason for objecting to the proposal is the possible cost implications for council tax payers, or is she going further than that? As I understand it, the only reason she gave for not supporting the proposal is that an unknown cost would be associated with it.
Ms Winterton: No, I did not say that; I said that there were two reasons. The first is that councils have the power to hold referendums, if they choose to do so, whereas the new clause requires them to hold them. We have had a number of discussions about the fact that in some cases we place a duty on councils to do certain things, whereas in others we say that the councils may do so, if they want to. That was the first and major reason I gave for rejecting the new clause. The second reason is that the proposal is uncosted and would impose a new burden on councils, which would have to set up facilities to carry out the duty.
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I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley-he is no longer in his place-has expressed concern about how the referendum in Greater Manchester was conducted, but we are not aware that current arrangements for holding local referendums are failing to work well in the majority of cases or that councils are failing to meet calls for local referendums. What I am saying is that in the Government's view, without the necessary evidence, it would not be appropriate to impose another burden on local authorities. We are well aware of the wider debate about democratic renewal, and local referendums may well become part of it. If there are any issues about local polls, we want to hear about them in that context.
With new clause 11, my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley seeks to impose penalties on local authorities for non-compliance with the duty to promote democracy as set out in chapter 1 or with petitions duties as set out in chapter 2. I am delighted that my hon. Friend is keen to see a strong local authority response to both sets of duties, and I view it as essential that those duties are actively and effectively taken forward by local authorities.
We discussed the issue at length in Committee, but in view of the current debate, it is worth reminding right hon. and hon. Members why we want local authorities to assume these duties. We want to see local democracy reinvigorated and all people encouraged to play their
part. People have a right to know how local government and other local public services are run and what decisions are taken on their behalf. They should also know how they can take part in making those decisions, including the possibility of becoming a councillor. Raising awareness is a necessity.
We have taken the route of establishing a duty for councils, based on solid evidence. There is a strong commitment to establishing councils as the hub for local democratic activity and to embedding the promotion of local democracy within their DNA. The duty addresses the lack of awareness of local democracy. As many of us know, a lack of awareness of councillors' roles was identified by the Councillors Commission and others, including the deeply respected all-party parliamentary local government group. To illustrate the point, an Ipsos MORI survey for the Local Government Association showed that fewer than a third of people know even a fair amount about what their council does. That lack of awareness is certainly a major barrier to civil and civic participation, and it contributes to the lack of diversity among councillors and others with civic roles.
We all know that we are not making the most of the potential talent among communities, including women, people from black and ethnic minority communities and people of working age, who are currently under-represented as councillors and in other civic roles. We want to ensure that people feel that local democracy is relevant to their everyday lives and that local authorities become the hub of local democracy. If we do that, local people will have a single, easily accessible port of call for information about how they can participate in decision-making at the local level, including as or through a councillor.
We all agree about the importance of the aim behind those duties and the importance of raising awareness and of looking at the evidence for the fact that only 28 per cent. of councils guarantee an automatic response to petitions. We know that there is good evidence for requiring councils to respond to petitions and to publicise their petition schemes, which will help people to feel that they can influence local decisions.
If we all agree on the importance of these duties, how do we ensure that they are achieved? Do we really want the coercive and, might I suggest, distrustful approach proposed in the new clauses? We have to ask ourselves how that would be received by the local government sector. We need to trust local authorities to respond effectively and imaginatively to the new duties. The duties are subject to parliamentary scrutiny and have been imposed because Parliament recognises that these are activities that councils should add to their functions in order to make real improvements for local people.
We intend to set money aside to enable councils to carry out the duties, and we will provide them with full support through guidance and a sector-led best-practice approach. There are already legal remedies for enforcement, but we do not rely on them to ensure compliance in this case any more than we do in relation to most other legal duties that apply to local authorities. There is no direct enforcement mechanism in the provisions, and we do not think it appropriate that there should be one. In conclusion, there is already an intention to ensure that local authorities involve people and to look at the petitions system, but as many hon. Members have said, we do not want a more coercive approach.
New clause 2, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew), relates to parish polls-I know that he is a long-standing supporter of the first tier of local government. One of the most interesting and informative conferences that I have attended recently was that of the National Association of Local Councils. I learned a lot about parish councils and invited them to enter the debate about what we can do to help to ensure that they have the support that they need from their local communities. We talked about powers and so forth. I know that my hon. Friend's continued service to the community as a town councillor-as well, obviously, as his work here-demonstrates that commitment very clearly.
New clause 2 would increase the number of local government electors required to trigger a parish poll, which is essentially a non-binding referendum on local issues, so that no poll would be undertaken
"unless either the person presiding at the meeting consents or the poll is demanded by not less than 30, or one-third, of the local government electors present at the meeting, whichever is the greater."
Parish polls are a very useful way of gauging local opinion on matters that are important to local people, but we are aware that the issue has been the subject of previous debate. I assure my hon. Friend that the ease with which a parish poll can be triggered has caused concern in the past.
We are also aware of other issues around parish polls, which my hon. Friend did not necessarily mention, such as their scope and conduct. That is why we recognised in the "Communities in control" White Paper that we need to make the rules governing parish polls more accessible and better understood and to define their scope more clearly. That is why my Department is taking work on parish polls forward.
We will want to consult the parish sector and others-and, obviously, my hon. Friend-on how the provisions for polls can be reformed. We will want to examine not only the methods for triggering a poll, but the scope and conduct of polls. We might, for example, consider modernising the full range of rules governing parish polls, which could involve-my hon. Friend mentioned this-an extension of the hours during which they can be held. We entirely agree that there should be robust and effective parish poll provisions, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the matter. However, for the reasons that I have given, I hope that he will join in our debates on this important issue but not press his new clause.
New clause 8, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), gave rise to a great deal of debate and very strong feelings. As my hon. Friend made clear, he knows that the Local Government Act 2000 allowed smaller councils in two-tier areas to operate a streamlined committee system. As he said, at the time when the changes were made, it was decided that local authorities with fewer than 85,000 electors could retain the committee structure to which he referred. As it happens, a fair number of the councils involved have moved on to the new system. I think it has been recognised that the executive arrangements have delivered more in terms of effective, transparent decision making and clearer accountability, and I think there is a general consensus that it represents a better approach.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend allow me to put on record the fact that, all along, we in Stoke-on-Trent had serious concerns about the changes that she seeks to make retrospectively, and that we do not feel that they were in the best interests of governance in Stoke-on-Trent?
Ms Winterton: I hear what my hon. Friend says, but we are not aware of any significant interest among local authorities in moving from the executive governance model to a streamlined committee system.
Mr. Hancock: Will the Minister tell us what evidence exists to suggest that the change has been for the betterment of local government, and will she explain what she thought was wrong with the old system, which allowed people to choose whether or not to have a committee?
Ms Winterton: Many Members have described the way in which they thought the old system worked. I believe that although having a very powerful committee chairman involved a similar number of very powerful figures, that system did not provide the accountability and transparency that a cabinet system allows, and the Bill is intended to improve it.
Mr. Curry: The proposal from the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) does not require any single council to return to a committee system. It merely gives councils a choice. If the Minister is right and the trend is in the opposite direction, what harm would be done by the hon. Gentleman's measure? He would be proved wrong and the Minister would be proved right. This is not about prescription; it is all about choice.
Ms Winterton: It is also important for us in this place when we, too, are legislating to have as far as possible a system enabling us to know the structure for which we are legislating. That is why I believe that the new system will be better.
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Andrew Mackinlay: I am grateful to the Minister, for giving way to be, but I simply will not let her get away with this nonsense. All that I wish to interest this House of Commons in is giving local authorities an option. Why on earth is the Minister saying "We know best, and you must not-must not-have a committee system"? Where is the logic and fairness in that? As for the arbitrary provision for a population of 85,000, why is 87,000 unacceptable? It is just rubbish.
Ms Winterton: I am sure my hon. Friend does not really mean that. [Hon. Members: "He does!"] Perhaps I can clarify one of the issues. We believe that allowing different structures to evolve would create confusion in the legislation. I realise that my hon. Friend feels strongly about the issue, but I am afraid I must tell him that we do not agree with his new clause.
Mr. Redwood: How on earth can giving people choice and allowing them to make sensible decisions create confusion in legislation? Is the Minister saying that the Government are completely incompetent, and could not handle choice in any kind of legislation?
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