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"put it to me that he was concerned that his defence team-at a time when defence was really important, and Afghanistan was really critical-lacked expert understanding".
Mr. Davidson: Indeed, and I do not think that there is any doubt that the Opposition Front-Bench team lacks expert understanding, but then again the Opposition have to make do with what they have got.
We must try to ensure that the trust between senior officers and elected representatives is not broken by the type of partisan behaviour that we have seen. There is already the difficulty that senior officers, particularly in the Army, are socially unrepresentative. The latest figures that the National Audit Office has given me show that nine out of 10 come from private schools, which is clearly socially unrepresentative of the country as a whole. It is bad enough to believe that they have Conservative sympathies without their coming out in such a partisan and sectarian fashion.
As Members might have expected, I shall deal now with aircraft carriers. The confusion about how the matter is to be proceeded with was summed up well by the Liberal spokesman, who managed, not untypically, to have two contradictory positions at the same time: claiming to have the same viewpoint as the other two parties when in fact their viewpoints are clearly different. The Liberals indicated, as I understood it, that they wanted to procure aircraft carriers, but that it would all be subject to review. That smacks a bit to me of wanting poverty, chastity and the pure life, but not yet. Given the importance of the aircraft carriers to the Rosyth base in a Liberal Member's constituency, I would have thought that the party could be much more unequivocal about its support for the aircraft carriers. As I understand it, the Conservatives have not made even as clear a statement as the Liberals about their desire to order the aircraft carriers. They would simply pass on the decision to a review-the weakest of all positions.
Linda Gilroy: Given that an important part of the aircraft carriers is to be built in Appledore, the neighbouring constituency to that of the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, does my hon. Friend not find the position even more surprising?
Mr. Davidson: That is a hard question. I do not find it particularly surprising-it simply demonstrates the Liberal spokesman's confusion or possibly lack of local knowledge.
The Conservatives have not said unequivocally that they would like the aircraft carriers. They have pushed the matter into the middle distance, presumably hoping that something will turn up. That is causing great concern among people in the Royal Navy to whom I have spoken. The Royal Navy without an aircraft carrier programme would be little more than a glorified coastguard.
The contrast between the Conservative position and that of the Government is that we do not need to look
at the crystal ball when we can read the book. The Government have ordered the aircraft carriers. The Secretary of State made it clear that they intend to continue with the programme.
Nick Harvey: The Government have placed the contract and, to the best of my knowledge, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats backed them in that. When did any Minister guarantee that the future of the programme did not form part of the strategic defence review? The hon. Gentleman is wishing a policy on his party and his Front Benchers, and I cannot see any authority for it.
Mr. Davidson: I got a clear, unequivocal statement from the Secretary of State earlier today, which firmly committed the Government to maintaining the aircraft carrier programme. I and my constituents in the shipyards have absolutely no doubt that a Labour Government are committed to maintaining the aircraft carrier programme, as are those working on it in Plymouth, Portsmouth and elsewhere.
Let me revert to the notion of the glorified coastguard, which brings me on to the navy of an independent Scotland. It is important to mention-so that people can consider them for the future-the recent statements on defence by Lance Corporal Robertson, the Scottish National party spokesman on defence. He said that, in his view, after independence United Kingdom forces would be perfectly free to remain in bases in Scotland, and that, indeed, they would do that. He also said that some arrangement could be reached whereby independence came but nothing would change, and that the considerable cost of bases in Scotland would be maintained by a the United Kingdom Government, bereft of Scotland. That is wishful thinking of the most gratuitous sort.
Mr. MacNeil: I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman's myopia. I was recently in the State Department and the Pentagon, where people spoke of their co-operation with the Dutch and praised them. It might be beyond the hon. Gentleman, but countries co-operate internationally. An independent Scotland would look to do exactly that with, of course, our nearest and dearest neighbours, and with other countries throughout the world.
Mr. Davidson: I am not entirely clear whether those other countries would be offered the opportunity to have bases in Scotland. Let us be clear about SNP policy on defence jobs and spending in Scotland. It is predicated on the idea that all the existing UK forces would remain in Scotland, except those on the Trident base. So in circumstances in which one base was thrown out, the assumption is that everyone else would remain.
Mr. MacNeil: About 10,000 defence-related jobs have been lost in Scotland since Labour came to power. Is the hon. Gentleman proud or ashamed of that record?
Mr. Davidson:
This is the man who says that the SNP can always do better. If Labour has lost 10,000, he wants to lose 100,000. Let us proclaim what the SNP defence policy would mean. It would mean Leuchars no more, Lossiemouth no more, Rosyth no more, and the Clyde shipyards no more. All those things would close under an independent Scotland. We have a responsibility
to make clear to people here and elsewhere what devastating impact an independent Scotland would have on defence and defence jobs. Do the two Opposition parties that aspire to be in government intend to keep bases in Scotland after independence?
3.45 pm
Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is worth taking a few seconds of my precious 12 minutes to invite you to draw Mr. Speaker's attention to the fact that by the time we reach 6 o'clock in today's short debate, almost half the time will have been taken up by Front-Bench Members. If they say, "Ah, but we gave way so often", I would invite you also to point out-this is my grumpy old man bit-that when I was first elected to this House, it was regarded as the height of discourtesy for hon. Members on either side to intervene on a Front-Bench spokesman or Minister and then to disappear and go home. That has happened consistently. Some Members have intervened three or four times before disappearing from the Chamber.
Before the hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson) asks, I unequivocally support the construction of the two carriers and I believe that they should be built. When the seas are opening up around the north pole area and the north coasts of the Russian Federation and Canada are becoming available to shipping, when 90 per cent. of this country's trade comes by sea, and when every house in the country depends for its fridges, cars and television sets on seaborne trade, I cannot think of a sillier thing to do than abandon the Royal Navy and the global reach that it represents. In case he would want to challenge me further, I am also unequivocally in favour of renewing the Trident submarine fleet. When the only certainty in the world is uncertainty, this would be a foolish time even to consider giving up Trident.
There is so much for us to talk about, but I want to talk about MOD policy on ranges. I pay tribute to uniformed and civil personnel in my constituency, and also to NHS staff-Salisbury district hospital receives wounded soldiers from Afghanistan-for their spinal, burns, orthopaedic and rehabilitation skills.
Last week, I visited the Hebrides range. It is all very well talking about policies and Afghanistan, but if we do not have the right sort of weapons, and if they have not been trialled to ensure that they are effective and efficient, we may as well go home. Ranges are important. In the end, we depend upon them. I am grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones), and the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr. MacNeil). I met the latter in the Hebrides, and his commitment to the MOD and QinetiQ work forces on the islands is beyond doubt. There was nothing party political on my part when I was there. I was attacked for cosying up to the SNP by the Labour candidate, but I will put that to one side because the matter is far too important to indulge in pathetic party politics.
I was immensely impressed on my visit by the determination of the people of North Uist, Benbecula and South Uist to sustain their communities and to ensure that young people stay on the islands. I was also hugely impressed by the vision of the head of the secondary school that the hon. Gentleman took me to visit, who seeks to focus the education provided by the school on the islands' future needs.
My interest in ranges stems from the fact that the headquarters from which all QinetiQ MOD ranges are managed-10 ranges and 10 other sites-is at Boscombe Down airfield in my constituency. I see the matter from both sides.
There was an unseemly little spat about the ranges in Scotland questions yesterday. Following suggestions that the range on the Hebrides might be rationalised and 125 jobs might be lost, the Secretary of State for Scotland said:
"We are very clear that the initial proposals were abandoned, that there is no plan B and that the jobs will stay."-[ Official Report, 14 October 2009; Vol. 497, c. 278.]
Of course there is a plan B. If evidence were needed, I happen to have a copy of the invitation to the meeting held at Farnborough last Friday at 4 pm, with a list of those who attended, which states:
"This is a meeting to set goals for investment based projects that we expect to undertake now that IARO"-
integrated air range operations-
"is not going ahead."
Back in July, the cost-saving investment proposals for the air ranges in the Hebrides and Aberporth were published, and we were told that it would be possible to operate both air ranges from a single command and control centre at Aberporth without loss of capability. That is by no means certain, as I have discovered by going to the ranges and talking to the people involved. It was said in the paper that the operational savings would amount to £4 million a year for the MOD. That is fine, but the Hebrides range's taskforce reports that the cost of job losses to the islands would be £5 million a year, and that the Government would lose £3 million a year in tax income and benefit payments. In other words, the MOD may not be responsible for the creation of jobs in the islands, but the Government have an overall responsibility for the consequences of MOD decisions.
When the MOD issued a press release on 15 September, following the decision, I was relieved to read the wise words of the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), who said:
"I have taken into account the interests of the Defence budget, the social and economic impact on the community in the Western Isles, the future of St Kilda, and the risks which in my view would be involved."
Wise words. I discovered when I was on the islands that the National Trust for Scotland alone is likely to lose about £500,000 a year of benefits if the MOD withdraws from St. Kilda. There would be enormous costs to the community and the country if that happened.
Mr. MacNeil: I thank the hon. Gentleman for coming to my constituency to see the Hebrides range. Does he agree that while he was there he saw that no other range could do what can be done by the Hebrides one, which has a range the size of Scotland if not bigger, so the proposals are folly and stupidity of the first order?
Robert Key:
Yes, I learned that and I learned too that while everything that is done at Aberporth could be done in the Hebrides, the majority of the work done in the Hebrides could certainly not be done at Aberporth.
Another thing that I learned from my visit was that the long-term partnering arrangements kept coming up-the great contract between QinetiQ and the MOD. QinetiQ's "VISION for 2013" on "Test and Evaluation Capability Services...2013 horizon" talks about the need
"to sustain organic growth"
"Expand market share in Sweden, France and Australia."
I looked a little further into that point. QinetiQ hopes to develop
"a facility management foothold in Sweden"
"T&E support acquisitions in Australia and France".
The answer is that it does not have a long-term partnering agreement to worry about in Sweden, Australia and France. I wonder whether there is a plan somewhere to take work away from the Hebrides and give it to those three countries, which would not be in anyone's interest. I observe that some of the contractors on missile tests are testing missiles in Sweden and France. Thales is, of course, a French-owned company, so that is entirely natural, but I do not want to see the erosion of jobs and skills in the Hebrides to someone else's benefit.
It is not the job of the MOD to subsidise jobs or promote economic development, but if the defence budget cannot or will not pay, taxpayer support will have to come from somewhere else-probably the Scottish Government, perhaps the UK Government and perhaps the European Union. Is it true that the Minister's decision was based entirely on the socio-economic arguments? How big a part did those play?
I think that I have learned from my briefings, both at Boscombe Down and West camp on the islands, and from talking to a number of employees and others, that for technical reasons the cost-saving investment proposals are not as good an idea as they seem. I picked up the message that one of the problems with the long-term partnering arrangement is that no one who works within QinetiQ on the ranges fully understands it. Indeed, many of the staff who work within the LTPA are-I believe-forbidden from even seeing it. A culture of managerial dependency has been created. Managers, who have bloomed-in terms of numbers and salaries-have tended not to respond to changing military need. I feel that they might have stifled innovation, stamped on new business ideas and discouraged new customers, because they have such a constricting influence in the LTPA. That is a great shame. The cost-saving investment proposals, too, would undoubtedly reduce range capability, would take the jobs of the very staff who have kept it going over the years and would remove a potentially excellent training capability for the Army, including for the Royal Artillery, which still goes up there for Rapier training every year. It costs the taxpayer a great deal of money.
There are many technical issues here. For example, what would happen if the number of tracking radars was reduced from six to two or if they were withdrawn from St. Kilda? Those would all bring disbenefits on a substantial scale. All those factors lead me to say that it was a wise decision not to go ahead with the original proposals at this time, but huge technical and scientific issues still need to be resolved. The microwave links between St. Kilda and Benbecula, and between Benbecula and Aberporth are by no means certain and are definitely
unproven with many additional nodes in the system. For example, St. Kilda weather protection and repair is a huge unquantified cost. Simultaneous working between Aberporth and the Hebrides would not be possible-it would be one or the other, as far as I can see. I am very concerned, therefore, at a technical level.
Mr. MacNeil: I am very grateful again to the hon. Gentleman; he has been very generous in giving way. He is making some very strong points about the LTPA. However, the overriding message that came through from the Hebrides range taskforce exercise concerned the flaws in the LTPA and the constraints that it was putting on the Hebrides range. The upshot was greater cost to UK forces, which are having to exercise and train elsewhere. That is the bizarre spin-off from aspects of the LTPA. I should mention China Lake, which has been used by Lynx helicopters, I think. Does he think that the LTPA needs to be looked at quickly and properly?
Robert Key: Yes, I certainly do. That is an important conclusion: the LTPA needs looking at. Perhaps that is something for the defence review.
Mr. Quentin Davies: The hon. Gentleman is obviously very well informed, and I am delighted that he was able to visit the Hebrides and see for himself. He has certainly identified many of the very critical factors, and what he says about them is perfectly right. To answer his earlier question, of course I took into account the socio-economic factors when coming to my decision about the range, but they were not determinant. I decided against it on a balance of factors, including very much the financial and technical risks to us, some of which he has identified. I dare say that my decision will become a matter of public record under a freedom of information request before too long. When that happens, he will see that all those factors were taken into account. However, there was a strong defence case against proceeding.
Robert Key: I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that point. I am sure he is right.
Finally, I want to make a plea: this is a fantastic range. It is the only one of its kind in the whole of northern Europe. We should have NATO partners flooding in to use it, but we do not. Why not? Why are our own contractors going to other people's ranges? This is a wonderful opportunity. It is not only a huge range, but the sort of missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that we are using are getting heavier, going faster-supersonic-and with a bigger bang. We need a huge area to use them-we certainly cannot do it at Aberporth. This is a wonderful opportunity for the community on the islands to see an expansion of defence activity on the range, as well as an expansion of other economic activity, to sustain some of the most exciting and vibrant communities in the country.
3.59 pm
Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I am extremely pleased to follow the hon. Member for Salisbury (Robert Key), who is a fellow member of the Defence Committee. I am disappointed that he was not able to join us on our recent visit to Washington to discuss a range of subjects. The visit was extremely valuable and has been mentioned by a number of my colleagues on the Committee in their presentations in the Chamber today.
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