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21 Oct 2009 : Column 999

Mr. Heald: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Prescott: No, because other hon. Members wish to speak.

I do not think that the European deal, which is based on emissions and which I call plan A, will work. There are 187 countries, not the 40-odd that were at Kyoto. We need consensus, and we need to recognise that 80 per cent. of the world lives in poverty. We are the 20 per cent. who poisoned the world. The emissions argument in the European deal would mean that less developed countries do not get the right to grow in the way that they should, and they know that. Instead of measuring our progress on emissions-whether 20 or 30 per cent.-we should start talking about gigatonnes. Let us measure that progress according to poisoning per head per year: in America it is 20 tonnes per head; in Europe 10 tonnes; in Japan 12 tonnes; in China 5 tonnes; in India 2 tonnes; and in Africa 1 tonne. Some 80 per cent. of the world's population suffer the poverty of living on less than $2 a day. Unless Copenhagen recognises that the agreement must be about social justice, it will fail.

We must change, therefore, to a better way of measuring our progress. Many countries want to find an agreement; they certainly do not want to be accused of failing. However, we will not dot our i's and cross our t's at Copenhagen. We did not do that at Kyoto; we agreed the principles and then we went to the conference of parties to renegotiate. At the end of the day, Copenhagen will mean the leaders getting together, and who is the one man who has said that he will go to Copenhagen? Who is leading? Our Prime Minister has made it clear that it will be a political fix. The world needs it and if we are to look after our children and our children's children, we had better start thinking seriously locally, nationally and globally. Britain is giving the leadership on that.

5.36 pm

Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): My hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) made it clear that the Liberal Democrats are trying to focus on a very simple thing that the House could do today: sign up for the 10:10 campaign. I have absolute admiration for the Minister. Her commitment on this subject is acknowledged and her contribution is huge, but the fact remains that the Government sound as if they are looking for excuses not to adopt a motion that her own policies would enable them to deliver if they were implemented. Surely the House should be able to decide whether it signs up for 10:10. If the House votes for the Government amendment, it will be unable to do so; only by voting for the Liberal Democrat motion can the House assert that it wishes to do so.

Hugh Bayley rose-

Malcolm Bruce: I shall not take the hon. Gentleman's intervention, but I will anticipate it. He said that the House of Commons Commission had indicated that it did not wish to go down that route, but that does not prevent the House from saying that it wants it to do so and asking it to think again. The 10:10 website, which I looked at today, says that the House of Commons has the opportunity to sign up for 10:10 today and asks people to ask their MP to do so. If the House does not pass this motion, I assume that tomorrow the website will say, "Parliament failed to join the 10:10 campaign
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because the Labour Whips would not allow it to." Some Labour Members should ask themselves whether they want to be in that position.

Ms Buck: The right hon. Gentleman feels strongly that Parliament has to commit to the 10:10 campaign today, but why was that not proposed by the Liberal Democrats as an amendment to the Climate Change Act 2008 when we passed it just a few months ago? Is it not a fact that this is about not a serious, sustained reduction in carbon emissions, but a gimmick to make them feel better?

Malcolm Bruce: Hang on. I did not like the last bit of the hon. Lady's intervention. So 10:10 is a gimmick? Is that what she is saying? The fact is that there was no 10:10 campaign when the 2008 Act went through Parliament, but there is now and it has widespread support individually and collectively. It is right for the House to use this opportunity to give a lead by saying, "We wish to join that campaign as a Parliament," as well as by urging the Government and other bodies to do so.

Hugh Bayley rose-

Malcolm Bruce: I am anxious to let other people make their speeches.

The point that I want to get across is that all of us have to think hard about the practicalities involved and how we can engage with central and local government to help each other to achieve the aim of joining the campaign.

Joan Ruddock: I have defended, and explained, the Government's position. I have made no mention of the House and its administration, which is a matter for the House. We have not in any way sought to prevent that from happening.

Malcolm Bruce: I am grateful for the Minister's intervention, and I accept her sincerity. On the other hand, the House faces a practical problem. If it wishes to join 10:10, it needs to vote for the Liberal Democrat motion, because it contains the wording that would allow that to happen. It is unfortunate that the Government, in seeking to amend the motion, did not incorporate that part of it and so, I suggest, make it easier for their own Members to support it. Some Labour Members should examine whether they really want to be in the position of having rejected that option.

Hugh Bayley rose-

Malcolm Bruce: I cannot take another intervention as others need to speak.

I will come to what the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said shortly-I completely agree with his closing remarks-but before I do, let me say that we need to give people a lot more help domestically to deliver reductions. We are still taking a rather scatter-gun approach. Everybody knows that there are technologies out there, but it is difficult to get hold of them. For example, for the past seven or eight years, I have been told that micro-combined heat and power systems will be available next year-indeed, I am still told that. However, people find it difficult to know how to engage with that process and whether to choose air or water source heat pumps, or where to get them from.


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There is still a huge role for solar power in this country, which is totally un-resourced. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman said in a previous incarnation that he would make it a building regulation that solar panels would be incorporated into the roofs of all new houses, but that does not seem to have happened. We therefore need to move towards giving people those opportunities.

I represent a constituency that is a major producer of oil and gas, and it will continue to be so for many decades to come. However, my constituency is also trying to adapt the technologies used for developing oil and gas to support the development of large-scale renewables systems, particularly in the marine environment. That is being done by installing offshore wind farms and tidal and wave technology, as well as other mechanisms to which the technology developed to install oil and gas platforms and pipelines is appropriately adapted. Indeed, we are looking for the opportunity to adapt such technology to deliver on our targets.

The point was made at a presentation in the House only a few months ago that if we are to deliver on our offshore wind targets, we need huge investment in lifting vessels that are capable of installing them, yet there is no indication that that is happening. As a consequence, we will not be able to achieve our targets. I am not criticising; I am simply saying that there is so much to be done if we are to deliver on that.

Finally, on the domestic front, I wonder whether the Government could use their unexpected role as the owner of substantial parts of our financial institutions to give people the mechanisms to invest in renewable technology and, in the process, create the thousands of green jobs that would help us out of the recession and reduce our emissions. There is now a unique and unexpected serendipity of circumstances, which, if the Government joined all those threads together, could enable us to move faster than we are. That is not a criticism of the Government, but perhaps a challenge and an invitation to take that idea forward.

I want to pick up on the remarks that the right hon. Gentleman made about Copenhagen. He is absolutely right: if Copenhagen degenerates into the rich nations' club, with those countries trying to decide how to share out their emissions, there will be no point in going. It is as simple as that. Why on earth should the poor countries of the world sign up to anything that is conducted in that spirit?

As the Chairman of the Select Committee on International Development, I know only too well that the perpetrators of climate change are us-the developed world-while the victims are the poorest countries in the world. My Committee will be in Bangladesh and Nepal next week. Bangladesh is probably one of the poorest countries in the world that is suffering most from climate change. Half the country could disappear in 20 years unless Bangladesh has not only the mitigation measures, but the adaptation measures-the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) has left the Chamber-to enable it to manage.

As I found out from evidence given to my Committee yesterday, Bangladesh does not need a Dutch solution, because the way that the water flows there is very different from how it stands in the Netherlands, and it therefore requires a different set of technologies. Those technologies are ones that the west will have to help
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Bangladesh with, through both practical resources and technology. We have to commit to undertake to do that at Copenhagen. It is about technology and money.

With that qualification, I welcome the Government's indication that they accept wholeheartedly the limit of 10 per cent. of overseas aid and development for climate change, but I suggest that there might be more strictures than that, and perhaps voluntarily. The second one may not be acceptable, but the first is that we should consider praying for climate change investment out of official development assistance only if it also delivers poverty reduction at the same time.

Barry Gardiner: Of course.

Malcolm Bruce: Well, I take that as a given, but it is important that that qualification is written in and the understanding is clear, so that projects are evaluated accordingly.

The second stricture that I was considering was that this proposal would be uncomfortable for the United Kingdom and should perhaps apply only to the countries that have achieved the 0.7 per cent. of GDP. People in poor countries are saying that the 10 per cent. rule implies that 10 per cent. is being skimmed off the development aid that they were expecting, in order to deal with climate change, which is a problem of our making from which they are suffering. I agree with the Prime Minister that we must find substantial additional resources, and that we need to make it clear that those resources are going to be transferred from the rich countries to the poor countries to help them to meet the challenge.

I should like to mention one particular exchange with the Prime Minister. At one point, he called for the World Bank to be turned into the environment bank. I shall give him the benefit of the doubt and say that that was a well-intentioned suggestion, but our Committee saw the danger of the World Bank, which has as a prime responsibility the reduction of poverty, being subsumed into making climate change a priority. I am glad to say that that proposal has not been pursued. We need to tackle both problems.

The Minister and I were active in the GLOBE forum of legislators, which is still continuing. She and I chaired the first meeting in London, in the run-up to Gleneagles, and another is taking place in Copenhagen this weekend. Legislators from around the world are going to try to help world leaders to come up with a text that is deliverable, that has the support of Parliaments-Governments and Oppositions-and that persuades the poor countries that there is a benefit to be gained, rather than a continuation of their suffering as a result of climate change. If we can bind Parliaments and Governments together, and bind successive Governments to meeting those commitments, we will have achieved a great deal. I believe that the interaction of Parliaments and Governments is the only way to do this, because Governments come and go, but Parliaments, although they change, can continue to provide the steel in the commitment to ensure that we not only make targets but deliver the policies that will make a difference.

5.46 pm

Mr. Elliot Morley (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I am very pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce). I know how much work he has put in,
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through GLOBE and other forums, and I agree with a great deal-although not all-of what he said. I welcome this opportunity to discuss not only the practical ways in which the Government can achieve their own targets, but the wider implications, particularly in the lead-up to Copenhagen.

I accept that the Government must lead by example. They must set an example nationally-for the private sector and local authorities, for example-as well as internationally. They have a lot to be proud of with regard to their international lead, and I appreciate that the Liberal Democrats acknowledged that. They have given a world lead through the Climate Change Act 2008, through introducing the concept of carbon budgets, which will be crucial for the delivery of our targets, and through using market mechanisms, such as the emissions trading scheme that has been developed by the European Union.

I also very much appreciate the fact that the Government have been working together with the Foreign Office, the Department for Energy and Climate Change, the Treasury and our embassies abroad. They have held seminars and campaigned to build support for the objectives that we must achieve at Copenhagen, and they deserve a great deal of credit for that. Their work is widely admired in many countries. That is not to say that we cannot do more, however. Progress has been slow in some areas.

I welcome the fact that the Government have acknowledged the importance of the 10:10 campaign in their amendment and have not tried to undermine it in any way. The campaign has an important contribution to make. It is directed at individuals and organisations, which will have to make up their own minds and evaluate whether they will be able to achieve the target within 12 months. The problem with the Liberal Democrat motion is that it does not define the public sector or which aspects of government should be involved. I do not know whether a 10 per cent. reduction can be achieved in 12 months; I suspect that, in truth, no one knows that. These targets are worth looking at, and to do so does not undermine the 10:10 campaign, but it does no one any good to sign up to targets if they do not have the necessary information to enable them to deliver them. That would undermine the targets.

Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): You do it all the time.

Mr. Morley: If the Government were to sign up to a target that they were not sure they could deliver, I suspect that the Opposition parties would not simply say, "Well, it was a bold move, and you did your best. We understand." That is not to say that targets do not have a role or to say that targets should not be viewed as important-indeed, the Government have set them.

Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): On that point, since the Government have already set themselves long-term but very challenging targets, and since we already know from the report by the Committee on Climate Change that they are not on a trajectory to meet those targets, should not the Government have the information, so that they know what to do to get back on target, which will probably require a 10 per cent. reduction in the very near future?


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Mr. Morley: It may well; I accept that point. That is why I greatly welcomed what the Minister said about the obligation on all Government Departments to have carbon reduction plans in place by next April. It would be nice if that could be brought forward and if we could have an evaluation of whether a 10 per cent. target could be met. I certainly think that the Government should take that seriously as part of that carbon reduction plan. They should look at a proper assessment of what can and cannot be done.

Simon Hughes: I ask the right hon. Gentleman, who is very knowledgeable, to accept two points. First, the first 10 per cent. is often the easiest to obtain. Secondly, if bodies such as the NHS, which is the largest public sector organisation in this country and is larger than those in many other countries, can say, "We think we can deliver", is it not ultimately a matter of will and intention rather than technicality? The figures and assessments exist, but it is all about the political will to deliver.

Mr. Morley: I agree with most of those points. It is quite likely that the first 10 per cent. reductions are achievable in many cases, but I return to the point that I do not know. I very much hope that the NHS signs up; it can do so, if it chooses, which is fine. The Government do not control that aspect of the NHS, of course, as they do not control local authorities, but I think that the NHS signing up would be a good thing. I also accept that there are savings to be had and appreciate that a great deal more could be done.

The issue of the Department of Energy and Climate Change building and its energy rating provides a good example. What concerns me is that the DECC building-it was formerly owned by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; it is a Government-owned building-was actually gutted. The outside is original, but there is nothing original on the inside. It was done not that long ago, but who on earth set the standards for that? Why does it have such a low rating for what is a comparatively modern construction? There is no excuse for it. What DEFRA did in its recent refurbishment-for example, the use of recycled carpet tiles and the introduction of water-saving and energy-saving measures-provides an example of what can be done with an old building. The Treasury received awards for its conversion of the old Treasury building into a modern building. Clearly, there has been a failure with the DECC building, and someone is responsible for it. That is what worries me.

The Government are developing excellent frameworks and strategies, but the pace of progress in many cases is slow. I know that work has been done on procurement, but I am not convinced about the way in which the Government are delivering or whether they are exerting the influence that they should. An awful lot more could be done. I appreciate-I know it from my own experience-that the wheels of government turn at a terribly slow rate, and I think that that is the case whatever Government are in power. It could be better. I would be grateful if the Minister would ensure, in addition to the very welcome carbon reduction plans, that there is a mechanism for delivery-perhaps by using the green Ministers' network or perhaps by having a much tighter evaluation of Government procurement, Government buildings and so forth.


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